flueless gas fires

[transam]

The death that occured with the flueless gas fire , was due to the fact that tjhe appliance was over gassed & consquently saturated or over loaded the catalytic convertor , the installer was found negligent because he did not check the burner pressure , also of some concern was the fact that the A.S.D device did not shut the fire down , the A,S.D device was not found to be faulty , & NO one has been able to explain why it did not work , 1 therory was that the air vent was to close to the fire & a draught played directly onto the A.S.D device , but the H.S.E are not certain !!!
Snubjib are you or have you installed flueless gas fires ???

 

[Biguns]

Transam
In the past - retired now

 

[namsag]

A better title for this topic would be catalyst fires as they are different from flueless fires.

Flueless fires where out as long as gas was in houses and still readily available up until around 25 years ago, and some fires used to be moved from room to room and plugged into a wash boiler bayonet fitting with a flexible hose. That is a flueless fire not strictly what you are discussing

 

[transam]

Well snugib its good to hear from you , apart from myself you are only the 2nd person , I have spoken to who has installed flueless gas fires .
(I take namsags point about catalyst e.c.t ) & I have spoken to numerous installers , besides those on this forum , at least 20 , I have reviewed alot of technical literature on these fires , alot from Burley , & I must admit the testing regime e.c.t is on the face of it impressive . I am some what sceptical about reports of C.O incidents with all gas appliances , as there are some (many?) that are not reported or wrongly attributed , I know of one such incident not with flueless. What does give me cause for concern is the fact that B.G wont touch flueless ( only found out on this forum)
A person I spoke to today also raised concerns to me about a number he put in were in areas that suffered fluctuation in gas pressure e.g when he went back 18 months later the gas pressure had increased & in his view , this could present safety issues , gas pressure increase would be at meter e.c.t !!

 

[Biguns]

Transam
There has to be more than 3 of us. must be a lot of closet installers, afraid to come out.
I firmly belive that with the safety record of these appliances( ok there has been one tragic incidet in 11 years which was attributed to an incorrect install) in my time they will become, for eco. reasons, like the condensing boiler, obligatory, eg flued fires, (heat up the chimney) will be phased out.
I was just trying to find a web site I visited recently, which said some european governments were giving people tax rebates to fit these fires.
I dont know why BG wont touch them, a real cynic might say they dont use/waste enough gas.
I cant get to grips why we dont grasp these new technologies. Japan & USA -not third world countries- have installed, at the last count, 60,000,000,between them in 17 years, with an exemplary safety record. European governments are giving tax breaks if you install them.
Did the person get the (in my day Transco) boys to check the meter regulator. Was the pressure increase also detected at the fire test point

 

[transam]

I dont know the details of the fluctuating pressure , it was as I understand it to do with a particular area he had worked on , I must admit I was somewhat pleased to actually contact someone who has or as you say Admits to installing these fires . I am also pleased to hear from you , I know that Burley have made a heavy investment into attempting to change attitudes towards these products , but they are at the moment fighting an uphill battle , I think you have a very valid point with ref to enviromental issues . But for the time being I won't be installing any more , I will have to go with the majority view for now ! Thanks for your response , I was begginning to think I was all alone .

 

[nickso]

I dont know why BG wont touch them, a real cynic might say they dont use/waste enough gas.

beacuse they dont want to. why would the gas usage have anything to do with it?

 

[Agile]

Agile i hope you realise whhat you have wrote is libelous as it was not the cat that failed it was a mixture of fire being grossly overgassed and a vent in just such a position that the draught kept the oxypilot from dropping out as the oxygen was used up in the room .

My understanding could be wrong because many aspects of this problem were hushed up by the vested interests and all the blame was directed to the scapegoat installer.

The fire was over gassed, the impression I gained was this was about 60% too high, and after a few months the catalyst got blocked/poisoned perhaps by sooting and the catalyst lost its efficiency and started to let through significant amounts of monoxide.

No significant blame was apparently laid on the manufacturer whose setting process was so poor that not only did the fire leave the factory set way too high but the setting screw was sealed with varnish at that wrong setting.

Thats particularly dangerous in my view for a fire sold at a DIY chain like B&Q where all the installation bits are sold and many DIY installations are likely to be made.

The design was also flawed because the range of adustment with a standard pressure at the supply allowed the power input to be set about 60% too high. Any safety advisor would advise this should not allow more than perhaps + 10-20%.

I was also concerned because the effect of varnish locking the adustment might be to discourage the installer from setting it up correctly. The manufacturers could reply that their experience is that RGIs are just as likely to misadjust it and I would understand that.

Tony

 

[griggs]

I often wonder if it is explained fully to end users the conditions of using these flueless fires, regular servicing essential, limited hours daily usage as a seconary heat source only etc

 

[Biguns]

Nickso wrote

because they dont want to. why would the gas usage have anything to do with it?

A major component of BGs operation, to satisfy its shareholders, is to sell as much gas as possible. These fires are exceedingly efficient.
It was not meant to be serious, just a thought provoking quip.

 

[Agile]

Some of the people on here are deadly serious about gas safety and when lives have been lost over an avoidable series of errors.

British Gas is only a smaller gas supplier to the retail market now.

Tony

 

[adlplumbing]

The death that occured with the flueless gas fire , was due to the fact that tjhe appliance was over gassed & consquently saturated or over loaded the catalytic convertor , the installer was found negligent because he did not check the burner pressure , also of some concern was the fact that the A.S.D device did not shut the fire down , the A,S.D device was not found to be faulty , & NO one has been able to explain why it did not work , 1 therory was that the air vent was to close to the fire & a draught played directly onto the A.S.D device , but the H.S.E are not certain !!!
Snubjib are you or have you installed flueless gas fires ???

yes they did they changed the rules on where the vent has to be
as vent was too close to fire and giving it fresh supply air to stop it from tripping out

 

[Corgigrouch]

Although I dislike these fires with a vengeance, it is fair to say that if they are correctly installed and maintained, then they are safe. I will give a quote for the installation, drawing attention to the vents to the outside that cannot be closed and the customer always changes their mind... I also draw their attention to the fact that they are not to be used as the primary source of heating and the amount of condensation that they produce. ... Never fitted one, capped off plenty

 

[transam]

I have been checking out various imfo ' on these gas fires , on a previous post I mentined a possible prob with fluctuating gas pressures !
Burley state the following , All Burley flueless gas fires have a number of safety , or lines of defence , The gas fires have a max flow limiter , The injectors limit the gas flow , The A.S.D or O.S.D drops out if the pressure is to high .
Also the catalytic convertor IS NOT a safety device , every fire is designed , tested & approved to operate safely in overload situations with the cat disabled ! The A.S.D or O.d.S ,must drop out before the oxygen level decreases by 1.5% , there is apparently no limit on the allowed oxygen depletion on other fossil fuel burning appliances . I am starting to feel better about my 3 installations , but I suspect someone will spoil it ??

 

[namsag]

So to put it basically all that stuff Agile put about the cat failing etc etc was bull sh#te.