Competent person & electrics

chirpychippy · 15 Aug 2015

I'm a chippy that fits a lot of kitchens, I am not part P nor qualified in any dimension as a sparky. I have Liability for Carpentry Joinery and Heat. According to a company I fit for, when an appliance packs up and a straight swap is required, then I as a competent person can disconnect it from a Fused Switched Spur and reconnect working appliance.

I disagree, I may be a competent person and have the knowledge, but, I don't have the liability insurance or the qualifications should I electrocute someone?

So I think the competent person rule only applies to those who are not SE.
What to you think, please

PrenticeBoyofDerry · 15 Aug 2015

I am a qualified electrician. With regards to your above post, firstly Part P is a building regulation, not a qualification or an award. It is something when anyone undertakes domestic electrical work, they must abide by. In simple terms it means you should perform and install electrical work in a manner that it does not endanger yourself or the persons that will be operating it/come in contact with. This in my opinion would need proving by design, construction and performing the correct electrical tests, using a calibrated test meter/meters, then documented in the correct certificate, plus have an understanding of the result and the implication these test results may have, if not within the permitted range/allowance.
As it stand at the moment in England, with regards to part p and notifiable work, work that is required to by notified is basically: any new circuit, a consumer unit install and any work undertaken in Zones 0,1 and 2 in a location with a bath or shower.

The term now used by the electrical regulations, is no longer "a competent person" but "a person skilled electrically"

My understanding of the definition of competency within the building trade, would be someone with: Skill, Knowledge, Experience and Qualification!

chirpychippy · 16 Aug 2015

Thank you for your prompt and descriptive reply PBoD, that suits me just fine. Much appreciated

MarkBarl · 20 Aug 2015

I would suggest that the use of the phrase "competent person" by the company that you do work for is confusing because it is is most commonly used in conjunction with part P. Disconnecting and reconnecting an appliance from an Fused switched spur is not notifiable work so would not come under part P.

More important is that your liability cover does not include any electrical work. Although I am sure you would be perfectly competent to do the work, as you have no training or qualification in the area I would doubt that you could get any liability cover for it.

noseall · 23 Aug 2015

Swapping wires like for like is hardly genius territory is it.

If you can change a plug then you can swap an appliance FFS!

chirpychippy · 27 Aug 2015

Ah Noseall, how's the man cave?
Nope it's not rocket science, but I'm not insured for it either and that was my point

DrJimFranklin · 27 Aug 2015

There are other aspects of this that the DIY fraternity may not consider. Any work undertaken for pecuniary gain (paid work) must be undertaken in accordance with the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 and also the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974, not forgetting the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999. The latter two refer to the first, EAW 1989, and that requires "all persons undertaking electrical work for commercial purposes or within commercial premises must be in possession of nationally recognised qualifications to prove they are competent to undertake the required work".

Now as far as I can gauge that means that our Chippy friend would fall outside of that description because he would not be deemed competent by the EAW 1989 and thus work in breach of HSAWA 1974 and MHSAWA 1999.

Should anything go wrong, then legally he and his employers would be up a proverbial creek with a pungent aroma and with a distinct lack of paddles...

ban-all-sheds · 27 Aug 2015

DrJimFranklin said:
EAW 1989, and that requires "all persons undertaking electrical work for commercial purposes or within commercial premises must be in possession of nationally recognised qualifications to prove they are competent to undertake the required work".

No it doesn't.

DrJimFranklin · 27 Aug 2015

EAW 1989 635 Part II Regulation 16 states

Persons to be competent to prevent danger and injury
16. No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work.

Further, the HSE defines a person as being competent thus.

A person can demonstrate competence to perform electrical work if they have successfully completed an assessed training course, run by an accredited training organisation, that included the type of work being considered. As part of that course, this person should have demonstrated an ability to understand electrical theory and put this into practice.

A successfully completed electrical apprenticeship, with some post-apprenticeship experience, is a good way of demonstrating competence for general electrical work. More specialised work, such as maintenance of high-voltage switchgear or control system modification, is almost certainly likely to require additional training and experience.

Issues of competence are covered in:

Memorandum of guidance on the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989. Guidance on Regulations

Electricity at work: Safe working practices

Electrical safety at work: Resources

Now whilst I accept the exact words I used were not how it is actually worded, the overall gist is the same when you take into account what the guidance notes for implementation of the Act and the statements and guides from the HSE state. The highlighted section, which is a direct quote from the HSE, states clearly that you need to be in possession of nationally recognised qualifications. If they are not qualifications given by an accredited trainer then they would not be nationally recognised and thus fall outside of the directive.

I do appreciate that one must be careful when interpreting what law writers actually mean, and equally careful when quoting them to a specific question. However this is an instance where the wording is irrelevant so long as the final meaning is exactly the same, and in this they are. You and I could discuss the semantics of the wording all we like, and neither would be right or wrong per se, but the fact is the law requires people undertaking electrical work in a workplace (thus for commercial purposes which would include paid work in a domestic premises) to hold proof of competency that can only be demonstrated by the holding of qualifications from an accredited, thus nationally recognised, organisation. Now the trainer per se does not need to be nationally recognised, but the qualification handed out does, such as City and Guilds or NVQ. To issue such qualifications the training provider must undergo rigorous testing themselves to ensure the courses they run and operate meet national standards, only then would any such qualification they hand out hold water and be of merit.

ban-all-sheds · 27 Aug 2015

DrJimFranklin said:
EAW 1989 635 Part II Regulation 16 states

Persons to be competent to prevent danger and injury
16. No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work.

Click to expand...

Indeed it does.

But that's not what you said it stated.

Further, the HSE defines a person as being competent thus....

"can... should have... a good way... "

Nothing mandatory.

Now whilst I accept the exact words I used were not how it is actually worded

But you put it in quotes and said that was what the wording of the law was. You clearly intended people to believe that's what the law says, i.e. you clearly intended to mislead.

The highlighted section, which is a direct quote from the HSE, states clearly that you need to be in possession of nationally recognised qualifications.

No it doesn't.

However this is an instance where the wording is irrelevant so long as the final meaning is exactly the same

It ceases to be irrelevant when you make false claims about what the wording is.

the fact is the law requires people undertaking electrical work in a workplace (thus for commercial purposes which would include paid work in a domestic premises) to hold proof of competency that can only be demonstrated by the holding of qualifications from an accredited, thus nationally recognised, organisation.

No it doesn't.

ban-all-sheds · 29 Aug 2015

chirpychippy said:
I'm a chippy that fits a lot of kitchens, I am not part P nor qualified in any dimension as a sparky. I have Liability for Carpentry Joinery and Heat. According to a company I fit for, when an appliance packs up and a straight swap is required, then I as a competent person can disconnect it from a Fused Switched Spur and reconnect working appliance.

I disagree, I may be a competent person and have the knowledge, but, I don't have the liability insurance or the qualifications should I electrocute someone?

So I think the competent person rule only applies to those who are not SE.
What to you think, please

I wonder what electrical qualifications, if any, the guys who drive lorries and use tail lifts and sack trucks to deliver appliances for {insert name of favourite white goods retailer} have, because they install too.

I can't work out if you are self-employed, or not. If you are you can check your own insurance, if not you need to ask your employer to see the details, as you need to get that squared away.

You're also going to need something authoritative on what training/qualifications you should have, and the problem there is that the legislation doesn't mandate anything, the HSE will probably not want to commit to anything, and from what I've heard an awful lot of H&S consultants are more interested in CTA recommendations like doing a formal documented risk assessment for sitting down at a desk than actually being of any use. But there's no harm in asking the HSE.

You aren't being asked to work as an electrician, so the idea that you should have a C&G qualification to swap an appliance connected to an FCU is nonsensical.

chirpychippy · 30 Aug 2015

Ban all sheds, yes I am SE and sub to the kitchen company. This is all ridiculous really, I just wondered where I stood not being qualified insured etc, but I can wire a plug so in principle it's the same thing swapping appliances. Oh sod it I just ring my Liability company see what they say.
Thank you everyone

mattylad · 30 Aug 2015

noseall said:
Swapping wires like for like is hardly genius territory is it.

If you can change a plug then you can swap an appliance FFS!

Maybe, maybe not.
I'm sure that your aware that it's not uncommon for plugs to be wired up wrong, the same applies to swapping wires in appliances.
(not saying the OP is not competent) so it is possible fo an appliance to be left with a live case or an earth fault and the OP deffo needs to have that covered by his insurance.

ban-all-sheds · 30 Aug 2015

As I said - unless there are criminals driving around in trucks saying Currys or Euronics or John Lewis etc etc etc, and unless these large, established, reputable firms have decided to formally incorporate criminality into their business processes, they must have found a way for people who do not hold any nationally recognised electrical qualifications to install hard wired appliances.

mattylad said:
I'm sure that your aware that it's not uncommon for plugs to be wired up wrong

Including moulded on ones supplied with the appliance? If, because the customer is the proverbial little old lady who can't see well enough, or bend down well enough, to plug an appliance in, and Acme Appliances Ltd do it for her when they deliver, which makes it a professional service and makes the location a place of work for the employee, what liability attaches to that person if the plug on the appliance is wired wrongly, or the socket is?

seasickstevie · 3 Sep 2015

mattylad said:
...not uncommon for plugs to be wired up wrong, the same applies to swapping wires in appliances.

I guess that's 'swapping wires in accessories' (?

?)

Sorry to be picky

Competent person & electrics

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