This thread is now 18 pages long and from none of the Remainers have I read of one worthwhile reason for staying in the EU.
In or out
- Thread starter gasbanni
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catnick67
maybe because there are not any
Perhaps, unlike the "out-ers", the "in-ers" don't mistakenly think they can explain it simply. It is not simple, it's highly complex.
It would take, not only a highly articulate person to explain the pros and cons, but also a team of expert researchers supporting them to be able to formulate a sound and substantial argument.
Until then it's merely a value judgement, not an interest judgement.
I.e. it's a judgement based on your beliefs and principles, which can not be monetarily compensated. It's not yet, IMO, a judgment based on interest which can be monetarily compensated.
When the well researched and articulately presented arguments are available, then the interest judgments can be made. But I suspect that the vast majority will still make a value judgment, not be swayed by an argument based on "interest".
However the politics of paranoia will continue, mainly presented by the highly motivated "value only" proponents.
It would take, not only a highly articulate person to explain the pros and cons, but also a team of expert researchers supporting them to be able to formulate a sound and substantial argument.
Until then it's merely a value judgement, not an interest judgement.
I.e. it's a judgement based on your beliefs and principles, which can not be monetarily compensated. It's not yet, IMO, a judgment based on interest which can be monetarily compensated.
When the well researched and articulately presented arguments are available, then the interest judgments can be made. But I suspect that the vast majority will still make a value judgment, not be swayed by an argument based on "interest".
However the politics of paranoia will continue, mainly presented by the highly motivated "value only" proponents.
Then why does CallmeDave tell his MPs to 'vote with your hearts'?
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Me personally think forming the European Union had less to do with peace and security and more to do with Hitler I mean Merkel ruling the world and the likes of Mercedes making vast amounts of money..
Maybe he's recognising it's a value judgment and not an interest judgment. Perhaps he's recognising the difficulty of presenting an argument based on interest, by either side.
That's exactly what a judgment based on "value" looks like. There's no attempt at presenting an argument based on any flimsy evidence.
Perhaps, even the OP thought that a discussion on this topic would be pointless.
On the other hand perhaps he was being ironic.
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catnick67
The thing is, none of us know what would happen if we stay in or chose to exit.+
Myself, well I believe that we would be better off out. I don't believe that should we exit that Europe will refuse to trade with us, they couldn't afford to.
The only thing holding the UK back would be UK red tape rather than EU red tape
Myself, well I believe that we would be better off out. I don't believe that should we exit that Europe will refuse to trade with us, they couldn't afford to.
The only thing holding the UK back would be UK red tape rather than EU red tape
So, as you suggest, there are no arguments for staying in, similarly, the converse must also be true.maybe because there are not any
As you've accepted.
So all proponents of either side are, as yet, preaching politics of paranoia.
I wonder if that is why the "pro-EU" side have not yet entered the discussion.
They may not need to, they could just make it so much more expensive for us by placing trade tariffs. That would mean our goods would be more expensive than EU goods in Europe. That wouldn't be good for us. It would cause us to look elsewhere to replace that trade, which in turn will make it more expensive.
EU could easily survive without UK. Could UK survive without trade with EU? Absolutely not.
The migration argument from the "out-ers" is a red herring. it would not affect the free movement of goods, services and people if we accepted the Norway model.
In fact we are not at the moment in the Schengen agreement. Norway and others are! So it would dilute the UK borders, not strengthen them!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-EU-example-really-an-option-for-Britain.html
In fact we are not at the moment in the Schengen agreement. Norway and others are! So it would dilute the UK borders, not strengthen them!
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catnick67
Problem is, pro eu supporters seem to be more concerned with frightening people to stay in, threatening that the UK will be unable to trade with anyone. Sorry, but I don't buy that. Perhaps our German built ambulances, police cars, fire trucks, are going to be laid up waiting for parts that are never going to arrive from Germany? Nope, aint gonna happen. Trade with Europe wont be unduly affected, but that is only my opinion. Oops, forgot that Clegg says 3million+ jobs will be lost. He would say that though, wouldn't he, hes looking after no.1, if he says anything against the EU or brings it into disrepute he floses his EU pension. So sorry, but I don't want to be part it.
A good thing too, because world prices are lower than in the protectionist EU.
And EU wouldn't put trade barriers up against us, because they want us to buy their stuff.
All it needs are for the German car manufacturers and French wine producers to tell their respective governments that if they're not allowed to sell us any cars/wine, there will be layoffs.
The other 25 countries will then fall into line, as everyone in the EU has to do when Merkel/Hollande snap their fingers.
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