Sprinklers

stillp said:

bernardgreen said:

ericmark said:

kitchen the sprinkler system may do little damage compared with the good it can do

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Chip pan fire, the last thing you want is a shower of water into the burning oil

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My local Fire Brigade performs a series of demonstrations in the town centre most years. The have a dummy kitchen surrounded by a wire mesh fence, and leave a chip pan on a gas stove until it catches fire. A firefighter then enters the fence and extinguishes the fire using a fire blanket. They then leave it on again, and when it catches fier, using a long pole, they tip a small amount of water - perhaps 1/2 an eggcup full - into the pan. Instantly there is a spectacular fireball, reaching 10 - 12 feet high.

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You make a very good point, water is not always the best way to put out a fire and it is near impossible for an automatic system to work out when it should or should not operate. I think to be fair the sprinkler system is set so the fire does need to be quite large before they work and one would hope they only really work when occupants have not responded to fire alarms. However of course there is a balance between the delay with the alarm sounding first and how big the fire gets.

I think the link given to the Scottish government document says it all. When all risks are considered plus the cost then sprinkler systems for single occupancy houses does not make sense.

However what that has to do with an extractor fan in a garage I don't know. I do know non of the garages I have worked in had automatic sprinklers fitted. I have seen fires in a garage and these have often been associated with liquid so considering the department demo I would say automatic sprinklers in a garage could be dangerous and we all after all talking about a garage not a house.

There might be a better case for mist systems rather than sprinklers. These reduce fumes but don't use such a high volume of water as sprinklers. They aren't intended to put out fires, but to improve visibility and breathability for a short time, to enable escape from the premises.

I think there has to be a lot of thought going into the design of any automatic fire extinguisher, I know a whole group of electricians had their passes withdrawn i.e. sacked because they were found inside a building with automatic fire extinguisher built in which it seems would also extinguish life.

We are told it is often the smoke that kills and that when doors are opened the draft and cause flash over and also the fire can cause an oxygen deficient atmosphere.

The fitting of fire and smoke alarms can clearly save lives, and I think before sprinklers are made law we need to make fire alarms and smoke alarms law. Plus moves to stop the fires in the first place. I for one use a stand alone deep fat fryer which is thermostat controlled so less likely to cause a fire. We don't smoke any more that's another fire risk removed. The cooker has no red hot parts and no open flames again another risk removed. In fact it has built in fire protection and if the pan reaches a set heat it reduces power automatically and if it still goes up then it switches the cooker off. So even with a pan of fat it can never get hot enough to self ignite. We also have no open fires.

So compare my house to a house where gas is used for cooking which clearly is very dangerous, and has wood burning fires, and the occupants smoke and the risks are very different.

To say if a wood burner is fitted, or if gas cooking is used etc then sprinklers must be fitted in the appropriate rooms makes sense. But a blanket fit sprinklers in all new builds does not.

ericmark said:

I for one use a stand alone deep fat fryer which is thermostat controlled so less likely to cause a fire.

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I had one of those. It burst open, showering my wife with hot oil. Luckily she was turned away from it at the time, as she was holding a baby. The reatiler gave us a refund, the manufacturer didn't want to know.

stillp said:

ericmark said:

I for one use a stand alone deep fat fryer which is thermostat controlled so less likely to cause a fire.

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I had one of those. It burst open, showering my wife with hot oil. Luckily she was turned away from it at the time, as she was holding a baby. The reatiler gave us a refund, the manufacturer didn't want to know.

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That is really bad, I have seen no seam in my many models which could burst, if forgotten it will activate smoke alarm, but more worried as to if there is any thermal fuse so if the thermostat fails it will fail safe. But a fault like that should result in a recall. We no longer use oil, it seems be it in butter or fat animal stuff is better than veg stuff. Why anyone wants to put olive oil in butter not a clue. It seems margarine could kill my wife but butter is OK. With lard in the deep fat frier should we drop it then the stuff is solid we never move it while liquid. But that of course does not protect anyone if it bursts open.

Many years ago about 1981 I told my wife she could have any cooker she wanted. She was taken by a Canon gas cooker with a built in micro wave at £1000 and that was 1981 prices. But I had said any cooker so it was any cooker, then she looked at the little fingers which supported the pans, and she said little hands could too easy cause the pan to topple so when for a ceramic hob instead and I breathed again it was only £400 in 1981. This lasted until around 2006 when we swapped it, I would not say upgrade as it looked exactly the same as old one and lacked the built in splash guards and the oven shelves could actually fall out, I used hair pins to stop that happening.

However the oven now had 12 options, top, back with fan, and bottom heat and combinations and we find the closed door grilling great. And the hob was induction looked the same just worked different. Although the safety feature of not being able to accidentally pulling the oven shelf out onto the floor was missed. There were safety items added for the hob. I love putting on the child lock as wife still hasn't learnt how to take it off, she has to ask the grand children.

However which is main point as the hob became safer my wife seemed to get less safety minded and the number of times I have found she has left the hob switched on I have lost count. Problem is still have gas in the caravan. Although our new hob will auto turn off and on when you remove and return the pan and if not returned it will lock off that does not happen to the caravan hob. But I have a spare caravan I don't have a spare house. And I hate caravan holidays.

Not a seam Eric, the lid burst the catch. As the lid sprang open all the oil on the inside of the lid flew off. Could have been much worse. I have never allowed a DeLonghi appliance in my house since.

ericmark said:

But I have a spare caravan

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You hate caravan holidays, but you have two caravans?

Actually I have three, plus a trailer to take a tent with us and my car has a towing ability of zero. One kept by my son as he has only car big enough to tow it. One used by wife. One for sale gave it away to best man then his widow gave it us back. And every time my wife comes back I have to reverse it into her fathers drive. I lived in one for 5 years while away working don't want to live in one again.

My point is the sites are no longer cheap specially with electric hook up, and I go away to see the place I am visiting in B&B I am out by 9 if not earlier in the caravan hard to get out of it before mid day. And most attractions are closed by 5 and so we get 3 hours a day to see the area in a caravan and 8 hours in B&B so a week in a caravan is the same as a couple of days in B&B. In fact she often is within 100 miles from home with motorway between two points so may as well do it as a day out. I often do just that and visit her with my mother.

OK carrying my tent half way up Snowdon putting snow on the flaps and spending the night on the mountain I can see point even if a little old in tooth now, but caravan what is the point if I can get a caravan there I can also get a car there.

stillp said:

Not a seam Eric, the lid burst the catch. As the lid sprang open all the oil on the inside of the lid flew off. Could have been much worse.

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Ah, that's rather different from what most of us probably imagined from what you originally wrote. We've had similar problems (although thankfully without anyone suffering) with lids of deep fat fryers springing open - we've discovered that unless one keeps the catch mechanisms meticulously clean (free from 'orrible goo!) (which is easier said than done!) the catches quite often not fully engage, and therefore can 'spring open'.

Kind Regards, John

ericmark said:

but caravan what is the point if I can get a caravan there I can also get a car there.

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I don't think the reason people go caravanning is because they don't have a car.

JohnW2 said:

we've discovered that unless one keeps the catch mechanisms meticulously clean (free from 'orrible goo!) (which is easier said than done!) the catches quite often not fully engage, and therefore can 'spring open

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This was the second time of use John. It wasn't full of goo, and it had fully engaged - or at least clicked when pressed into place. What really peed me off though was that they told me they couldn't identify which faulty fryer in their returned goods department was mine, so they couldn't take it further. Not even an apology.

stillp said:

This was the second time of use John.

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Fair enough - not due to the cause I described, then.

stillp said:

It wasn't full of goo, and it had fully engaged - or at least clicked when pressed into place.

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IME, when they are "full of goo", "clicking when pressed into place" does not guarantee "fully engaged"!

stillp said:

What really peed me off though was that they told me they couldn't identify which faulty fryer in their returned goods department was mine, so they couldn't take it further. Not even an apology.

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That is clearly not acceptable.

I'm a little surprised you got them to take it back! Whenever I've complained about the early death/fault of a small kitchen appliance, I've been sent a replacement and been told to "get rid of" the original!

Kind Regards, John

JohnW2 said:

I'm a little surprised you got them to take it back!

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The retailer took it back, and forwarded it to the manufacturer for a report, given the circumstances of the failure. What I should have done of course was to go to Trading Standards.