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In or out of the European union

  • Remain in the EU

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An iPad? Wow I guess that explains why you want to stay in the EU, you enjoy being ripped off.
 
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Take care, bolo, you're in danger of becoming as cynical as the rest of us. ;)
 
tony1851 said:
Himaginn said:
tony1851 said:
.

Benjamin Franklin; 'those who are prepared to loose liberty for a little safety and security deserve neither safety nor security'.
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I would say a very appropriate quotation, but we're not at war with EU! It's an agreement with the EU that we are discussing, not UDI!
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But we are not discussing an agreement with the EU; the meagre window-dressing 'concessions' pork-face has won will be overturned because they are not legally binding, as Martin Schultz has stated.
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Sorry to burst your Martin Schultz bubble. What he actually said was,
Commenting on whether a European Council agreement would give Mr Cameron’s an “irreversible” deal, Mr Schulz had earlier told Sky News: "Nothing in our lives is irreversible.

"Therefore legally binding decisions are also reversible - nothing is irreversible.

"But in politics, when 28 heads of states and governments and the European institutions together on the 19 February agree about a deal, the deal is done."
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http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...vid-Cameron-Brussels-Martin-Schulz-reversible
Also, the BBC reports:
It comes as papers released ahead of next week's crunch summit suggested any agreement on changes to the UK's membership of the EU would be "legally binding".

Draft conclusions of the summit, issued in advance, state any deal would be "fully compatible with EU treaties".
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35538074
 
PBC_1966 said:
Fire and Ice said:
Indeed, it does seem that Hitlers replacements are strutting around with a new flag, anthem, and means to gain total domination..
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Then mix in an EU army and Europol. It's a very worrying trend developing.
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The suggestion of an EU army is laughable and been disproved several times.
So please, don't resort to F&I disgraceful tactics. It's been a sensible debate so far.

Europol:
More than 900 staff at Europol headquarters in The Hague, the Netherlands, work closely with law enforcement agencies in the 28 EU Member States and in other non-EU partner states such as Australia, Canada, the USA and Norway.
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What's wrong with that? Very much like Interpol, is it not?
To decry Europol is to decry Interpol, surely.
 
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PBC_1966 said:
Himaginn said:
Assuming that a) market in EU does not stop suddenly,
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But isn't that just what the EU supporters are claiming would happen if Britain withdrew?
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Not at all! Trade, notably exports to, with EU would decline, perhaps at an alarming rate. But there's no suggestion of a sudden cut-off.
It would be a gradual realisation of the EU consumer that UK goods are more expensive and perhaps not such good value. Therefore there would be a switch to home grown/produced goods. This would raise demand for home grown/produced goods in EU. I suspect I don't need to continue with an economics lecture.

PBC_1966 said:
and b) the market in USA does not start suddenly (competing against existing sustainable competitors) the EU standards would have to be continued. If export (albeit in a limited state) continues to the EU well after Brexit, the EU standards would still apply (and probably have become international standards anyhow) and it would be foolish to manufacture two different products.
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Some things can be designed and manufactured to meet two different standards simultaneously, other things cannot, so for as long as there is no single, worldwide standard for every product there will still be the need for different versions anyway.
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But it's not cheaper, it's more expensive to produce at two different standards. That will simply add an additional layer of expensive to try to compete in EU and other markets.
 
PBC_1966 said:
Himaginn said:
PBC_1966 said:
not to mention that £33 million per day "membership fee" for the EU. You could ship a lot of containers all around the world for that price each day!
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If you tried to use that money to compensate all the manufacturers for their increased shipping costs, you'd need a whole new administration to process it, which would cost a whole new set of costs.
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You would need no extra administration whatsoever if the government simply cut the extortionate taxes in the U.K. in order to give some of that £33 million per day to its own people instead. A few taxes could be abolished entirely, and further advantages gained by a reduction of the bureaucratic red-tape needed to collect them. Maybe a few redundant paper-shufflers in government departments could then go and find productive work somewhere else too.
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This simply not going to happen. I'll explain in another post.
 
PBC_1966 said:
Himaginn said:
I initially said: "what if you wanted to get back in". You've lost the context by dismissing my question without answering it.
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It was just intended as a light aside, but to be serious, why on earth would the U.K. ever want to get back in having gotten out?
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I'll explain below.

PBC_1966 said:
Himaginn said:
You've missed the point.
Trade with EU would not stop abruptly. It would decrease over time.
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But, as above, aren't the pro-EU side always saying how withdrawal would be devastating due to a sudden inability to sell into other EU countries?

So maybe over time trade with EU countries would decrease, and trade with the rest of the world would increase to compensate.
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No-one suggested a sudden drop-off of exports to EU. A gradual decline, perhaps, as I've said, at an alarming rate.
Suppose any increase in 'replacement' markets is at a much slower rate. After all, if it was that easy to break into other existing established markets, we'd already be doing so!
So consider a scenario of our exports taking a dive, imports continuing, perhaps now more expensive, 'cos we're no longer in EU.
Balance of payments become more of an imbalance. Austerity drive by government, falls in tax revenues (hence why the EU payments won't be redistributed. They'll be retained to make-up loss in tax revenue)
Government devalues Pound to try to make our exports more competitive, fall in UK living standards, migrants decide they're better off elsewhere, (I can hear the Brexit campaigners cheering!). Public sector services start to suffer breakdowns.
Further austerity cuts, NHS, Education, Military, LA, Police budgets cut. Higher educated/skilled indigenous Brit's start to emigrate.

Tories given severe kicking at next General Election. (not 2020, too early, more like 2025 or earlier). Corbyn elected as PM.
Campaigns for re-entry into EU, and starts negotiation.
EU insists on further Austerity cuts, more devaluation prior to adoption of Euro, and insist on acceptance of Schengen Agreement as prior conditions to re-entry into EU.
If UK re-enters EU now at a much reduced level of influence, more like a developing country. It would take 50 to 100 years to regain the level of living standards experienced prior to Brexit.
What a pyrrhic victory for the Brexit bunch, caused by pious deception.
I can imagine the re-entry campaign poster: a picture of Stan Laurel, twiddling his tie (with the inevitable Union Flag print) and the caption: "Another fine mess you've got us into!"
Perhaps the Brexit would become as toxic as the Iraq war to the various political parties..

PBC_1966 said:
It would not be cost-effective to make two different products, one meeting EU regulations, and t'other not meeting those regulations.
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Again, as above, for some things this already happens due to different standards. Manufacturers try to keep the costs associated with different versions as small as possible by making a product which is identical as far as can be achieved, but there is sometimes still a need for slight variations.
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And sometimes it's easier just to make one product.

PBC_1966 said:
Himaginn said:
If the EAW would be retained after any reforming of the EU, so it's highly likely that it would be retained after any Brexit. Inded the article linked to in my response demonstrates the desire of some to retain the EAW.
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And that in itself is worrying. I would hope that a government withdrawing from the EU would also withdraw the U.K. from the European arrest warrant system so as to restore proper judicial review for extradition.
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But as indicated, it won't happen. The benefits of the EAW, to the forces of law and order and the government already outweigh the disadvantages.
 
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PBC_1966 said:
Himaginn said:
I initially said: "what if you wanted to get back in". You've lost the context by dismissing my question without answering it.
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It was just intended as a light aside, but to be serious, why on earth would the U.K. ever want to get back in having gotten out?
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Just to reiterate the point.
If ever there was another referendum about re-entry into EU, following a Brexit, you can bet your life it would have been brought about by a wide-spread realisation that the Brexit was a bad decision in the first place. I can imagine that happening as early as 2025.
But any re-entry negotiation will be at a serious disadvantage to the UK, probably entailing the Euro and the Schengen agreement.

So you're not only gambling with the current living standards enjoyed by the UK, by arguing for Brexit. You're seriously endangering the future position of the UK if your gamble doesn't work out. And I don't think it will.
It will probably cause the break up of the UK. Suppose Scotland votes for devolution, leaves the UK and joins the EU.
Wales and NI consider their position. England (or RUK) is forced into re-considering membership of the EU.
 
Himaginn said:
Take care, bolo, you're in danger of becoming as cynical as the rest of us. ;)
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Me cynical? Not a chance! However, since I gave F&I the last word, I won't be replying to his post. But I can tell you in confidence, that a little notification popped up on my iPad screen, saying that F&I's notifier is telling lies. It aparantly said that I wanted to stay in the EU and I have never said that! Like everyone else, I can only guess whether it would be a good thing or a bad thing.

What I can say is that it would appear to me, that some of those who oppose your views, and who may well be right, don't have the intellectual capacity to fight their corner on this forum. And if anyone reading this thinks that I am trying to be superior, I'm not. I'm just expressing an opinion formed over the past 26 pages.
 
An interesting article on BBC this morning:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35524844
Under-30s are most pro-EU but least likely to vote; older voters are more likely to favour Brexit and more likely to vote

University graduates, a high-turnout group, are solidly pro-EU; those with fewest educational qualifications, who are more likely to stay at home, favour leaving
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A result for the Brexit-ers will mean the older, less educated voters have destined the younger, better educated to a life not of their own choosing.
 
Himaginn said:
A result for the Brexit-ers will mean the older, less educated voters have destined the younger, better educated to a life not of their own choosing.
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Or another way of looking at it, a creature born in captivity and trained to be risk averse doesn't understand the value of freedom
 
Fire and Ice said:
Himaginn said:
A result for the Brexit-ers will mean the older, less educated voters have destined the younger, better educated to a life not of their own choosing.
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Or another way of looking at it, a creature born in captivity and trained to be risk averse doesn't understand the value of freedom
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That might be an easy way of defining animals mentality. It doesn't apply to intelligent, reasoning adults.
Additionally, if we can negotiate our way out of an agreement, it, by definition, can't be considered as 'captivity'.
Can an animal negotiate it's way out of captivity? The only way out of captivity is by stealth or by force.
 
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