Notifiable work ??

JohnW2 · 10 Feb 2016

securespark said:
JohnW2 said:

You probably should ask Mr Approved Doc P (or maybe the Deputy Prime Minister) where in the legislation he found that one!!

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Sorry, may be a bit brain-fugged tonight (most nights?) but I can't understand what your sentence means...

You said that Approved Document P indicated something which does not appear in the legislation (Part P of the Building Regs) that the document claims to be 'clarifying'. I therefore suggested that you should probably ask the author of the document ("Mr Approved Document P") where it came from or, perhaps, you could ask the Deputy Prime Minister - since, at least in the past, Approved Docs were published by "The Office of the Deputy Prime Minister"!!

Kind Regards, John

securespark · 10 Feb 2016

Gotcha. Dozy B@st'rd...

EFLImpudence · 10 Feb 2016

Allow me:

securespark said:
JohnW2 said:

securespark said:

What gets me about Approved Document P is that yes, you can replace a cable but it must be on condition that you replace with one that has the same CCC and follows the same route...

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You probably should ask Mr Approved Doc P (or maybe the Deputy Prime Minister) where in the legislation he found that one!!

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It says nothing in the legislation about CCC nor routes.

The authors of ADP must have made it up - something which they do a lot. It is therefore wrong.

Anything seen which is different than the legislation is WRONG.

Why do they bother writing it? Anyone would think they get paid for it.

Edit - D'oh, too late.

ban-all-sheds · 10 Feb 2016

PBC_1966 said:
So do you think that if the homeowner asks his son to help him install some notifiable electrics that both have to notify because both will be doing the physical installation work? If a builder turns up to do notifiable works with a mate or apprentice in tow, do they both have to notify because they'll both be laying the bricks or pouring the concrete? What if there are 50 people involved in the physical construction of a house; do you think every single one of them has to notify? Of course not.

It works on the basis of principal and agent. In this case, it is the electrician who is an agent of the homeowner and is carrying out work on his behalf.

FGS.

OK - at this hour I'm not going to do it, but tomorrow or the next day I'll quote various parts of the Building Regulations, substituting "homeowner" for "person carrying out the work", and show you just how wrong you are.

I suggest that before you get on your high horse again about how not notifying is immoral, you remember that a few years ago you were advising people to do just the same.

And I suggest you re-read the exchange we have already had about that, as you seem to have a problem remembering things.

ban-all-sheds · 10 Feb 2016

crystal ball said:
oops looks like a can of worms, I have informed the homeowner about the situation ( he is a commercial architect) so sort of familiar with the pile of poo that is part p

If you think that a requirement to make reasonable provision in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering them from fire or injury is a pile of poo then please never have anything whatsoever to do with electrics.

PBC_1966 · 10 Feb 2016

You're being deliberately obtuse when you know what he means. I don't think anyone objects to the basic requirement contained within Part P to make reasonable provision for safety. It's all the associated schemes, notification requirements, ambiguity and nonsensical differences between notifiable and non-notifiable jobs etc. which are the problem.

ban-all-sheds · 11 Feb 2016

No, I am not.

It is important that people realise that the requirements for safety have absolutely nothing to do with who does the work, whether it is or is not notifiable, and what it is. The requirement for safety applies to any work whatsoever on fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter which operate at low or extra-low voltage and are—
(a) in or attached to a dwelling;
(b) in the common parts of a building serving one or more dwellings, but excluding power supplies to lifts;
(c) in a building that receives its electricity from a source located within or shared with a dwelling; or
(d) in a garden or in or on land associated with a building where the electricity is from a source located within or shared with a dwelling,

whether done by a registered electrician, an unregistered one, or a DIYer, and it must not be dismissed because someone doesn't like the idea of notification, or the way that NICEIC etc behave.

Part P and notification/competent person requirements must not be conflated.

JohnW2 · 11 Feb 2016

ban-all-sheds said:
No, I am not. It is important that people realise that the requirements for safety have absolutely nothing to do with who does the work, whether it is or is not notifiable, and what it is. The requirement for safety applies to any work whatsoever on fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter which ...

Of course that's important, and the same concept, even though then not legislated, was equally important before Part P came into being, relatively recently. However, as PBC has said, I very much doubt that anyone (including the OP) disagrees with, let alone 'objects to', what Part P says.

As PBC also said, you surely must understand that the OP's comment related to the rules and bureaucracy etc. associated with Part P, and not to any non-acceptance of the (essentially common sense) requirements for safety written in Part P itself.

Kind Regards, John

PBC_1966 · 11 Feb 2016

ban-all-sheds said:
Part P and notification/competent person requirements must not be conflated.

Clearly some people are confused about the difference so it needs explaining. But the OP in this case has already made it clear that he's referring to whole package of Part P itself plus the associated schemes, notification requirements, etc.

crystal ball said:
is that not a change to part p, when I say part p I mean anything connected to the whole shambles

crystal ball · 11 Feb 2016

Good old BAS galloping along on his high horse, jumping to conclusions and dishing out careers advice to boot, John and PBC understand what I am saying, I have worked in the industry for 40+ years and in environments with far more stringent regulations than part p so am no stranger to sticking to the rules, but the amount of different replies to my simple question somewhat proves my point - its a pile of poo.

Oh yes and I will still be fiddling round with electrics for some time to come, I don't take career advice from meddling amateurs.

ban-all-sheds · 11 Feb 2016

PBC_1966 said:
Clearly some people are confused about the difference so it needs explaining. But the OP in this case has already made it clear that he's referring to whole package of Part P itself plus the associated schemes, notification requirements, etc.

Indeed he is.

He is conflating Part P, Regulation 12, Regulation 20 and Schedule 3. Part P has no relationship to any of the others.

And he is writing all of them off as a shambles:

crystal ball said:
is that not a change to part p, when I say part p I mean anything connected to the whole shambles

ban-all-sheds · 11 Feb 2016

JohnW2 said:
you surely must understand that the OP's comment related to the rules and bureaucracy etc. associated with Part P

There are none.

and not to any non-acceptance of the (essentially common sense) requirements for safety written in Part P itself.

"Part P itself" ≡ "Part P" in exactly the same way that "slightly pregnant" ≡ "pregnant".

PBC_1966 · 11 Feb 2016

ban-all-sheds said:
JohnW2 said:

you surely must understand that the OP's comment related to the rules and bureaucracy etc. associated with Part P

Click to expand...

There are none.

Really? You think there are no rules and no bureaucracy associated with the entire contents of the Building Regulations beyond Part A - Part P? You just quoted a few of them yourself.

ban-all-sheds · 11 Feb 2016

crystal ball said:
Good old BAS galloping along on his high horse, jumping to conclusions and dishing out careers advice to boot,

I did not jump to conclusions - I took what you said the be what you meant.

Perhaps you could try, in future, to write what you mean, and to learn to be accurate and precise.

John and PBC understand what I am saying, I have worked in the industry for 40+ years and in environments with far more stringent regulations than part p so am no stranger to sticking to the rules, but the amount of different replies to my simple question somewhat proves my point - its a pile of poo.

And there you go again - quite clearly describing a requirement to make reasonable provision in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering them from fire or injury as a pile of poo.

I don't take career advice from meddling amateurs.

Will you take advice on writing clearly and accurately from someone who knows more about it than you?

And for the avoidance of any doubt, this is not pointless pedantry. People who do what you do put out the message that all of the things that the Building Regulations have to say about electrical work should be dismissed. Not just the notification. Not just the Competent Person schemes. ALL of them.

ban-all-sheds · 11 Feb 2016

PBC_1966 said:
Really? You think there are no rules and no bureaucracy associated with the entire contents of the Building Regulations beyond Part A - Part P? You just quoted a few of them yourself.

Yes, of course the Building Regulations have rules, and involve bureaucracy.

Please show me where it describes any in this:

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Notifiable work ??

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