In or out

Himaginn said:

I wish I had a transcript of that George Galloway interview with Nigel Farage. I could quite happily spend a few hours pulling apart Nige's claims!
Nigel quote a bilateral deal that Iceland, a country in the EFTA, has recently completed with China.
But:

EFTA’s trade strategy has evolved progressively beyond the confines of the European continent. Since the late 1990s, the EFTA States have "gone global" with the objective of maintaining and strengthening their competitive position in the world. Through EFTA, the Member States have created one of the world's largest networks of preferential trade relations. EFTA's network of free trade agreements (FTAs) secures economic operators preferential access to markets currently of around 440 million consumers outside the European Union.

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http://www.efta.int/free-trade
So, it would appear that Iceland is not free to make it's own bilateral deals!
Just like F&I claims and allegations, they're easily dealt with!
I suppose Nige was thinking, "I can make a claim about Iceland. No-one's going to bother to check if it's accurate or not."

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It would appear however you want it to appear.. The UK is not Iceland and so is big enough and ugly enough to cut its own trade deals without having to have anything to do with EFTA.

It seems that Mr Farage was right.... https://www.mfa.is/foreign-policy/trade/free-trade-agreement-between-iceland-and-china/

He's frequently right about stuff

Himaginn said:

PBC_1966 said:

Would it be so for cars imported from the U.K. following a withdrawal? Obviously that's something which would be down to negotiation.

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Why would it be any different? Why would the EU make a special case for UK, unless we were in the EFTA?

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Perhaps because the EU would want the trade?

Himaginn said:

PBC_1966 said:

Why? Are the U.S., Canada, Japan, and numerous other countries which export to EU countries all in the EFTA? What do you think makes the U.K. so different that it would need to be in it?

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No of course they're not in the EFTA. That is why import tariffs are applied. If we're not in the EFTA, it stands to reason that we'd be subjected to the same import tariffs. Why wouldn't we?

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As above. Maybe the EU wants the imports more than it wants whatever that higher tariff happens to be.

But the point is that if the U.K. is getting out of the EU to avoid being bound by all of the bad things that such membership brings, why would the U.K. then even want to be in the EFTA when that itself would result in retaining many of those bad things?

Not being in the EFTA would result in a serious, gradual decline in trade with EU. It would also provide a stimulus to those other EU countries, replacing the loss in industry and commerce lost with UK. This would further dilute and degrade the position of the UK. A position we would have difficulty in recovering from.

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But what about the increase in trade which could be achieved by way of beneficial deals with the rest of the world, which the U.K. would be free to pursue without interference from the EU? Even if withdrawal did result in significant loss in trade with the EU over time, that in itself it not necessarily a bad thing.

The U.K. could seek to increase trade with other Commonwealth countries again, trade which, incidentally, in some cases has been about decimated since the U.K. joined the EEC (look at how much trade exists now between the U.K. & New Zealand or between the U.K. & Australia compared with 1972, for example - is it any wonder that the latter feels rather rejected hence the talk about abandoning the Commonwealth and becoming a republic?).

We've already discussed this in previous posts. If the EU made a new deal with UK following Brexit, the other 4 countries, currently in EFTA, would want the same kind of deal, if it was more preferable than being in EFTA. Therefore the EU is unlikely to consider a different deal for UK than currently applies to EFTA.

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Fine. The U.K. should not be bullied into accepting some kind of second-class EU membership (EFTA) and all the bad things that brings just because the EU won't grant lower import duties.

Himaginn, what on Earth would a ranting Commie such as yourself know about trade?... Just work on your five year plan to build a tractor and come up with a new plan for starving Ukrainians to death..

Fire and Ice said:

Himaginn said:

I wish I had a transcript of that George Galloway interview with Nigel Farage. I could quite happily spend a few hours pulling apart Nige's claims!
Nigel quote a bilateral deal that Iceland, a country in the EFTA, has recently completed with China.
But:

EFTA’s trade strategy has evolved progressively beyond the confines of the European continent. Since the late 1990s, the EFTA States have "gone global" with the objective of maintaining and strengthening their competitive position in the world. Through EFTA, the Member States have created one of the world's largest networks of preferential trade relations. EFTA's network of free trade agreements (FTAs) secures economic operators preferential access to markets currently of around 440 million consumers outside the European Union.

Click to expand...

http://www.efta.int/free-trade
So, it would appear that Iceland is not free to make it's own bilateral deals!
Just like F&I claims and allegations, they're easily dealt with!
I suppose Nige was thinking, "I can make a claim about Iceland. No-one's going to bother to check if it's accurate or not."

Click to expand...

It would appear however you want it to appear.. The UK is not Iceland and so is big enough and ugly enough to cut its own trade deals without having to have anything to do with EFTA.

It seems that Mr Farage was right.... https://www.mfa.is/foreign-policy/trade/free-trade-agreement-between-iceland-and-china/

He's frequently right about stuff

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That's brilliant! See you can provide substantive evidence when you want to!
The problems are:

The negotiations were launched in 2007. Four rounds of negotiations took place during 2007-2008 and two rounds in December of 2012 and January 2013. The Iceland-China Free Trade Agreement will enter into force when legal procedures of acceptance in both countries have been concluded.

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So it's only taken 9 years!
What's more, it ain't finished yet!

The Iceland-China Free Trade Agreement will enter into force when legal procedures of acceptance in both countries have been concluded.

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What's more:

The most important Icelandic export product to China is fish and other marine products, amounting last year to 90% of the total.

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So we've got a lot of fishing to do!
And the import tariffs will take place gradually over 5 to 10 years. What a big deal!
What's more will we have to agree to China's environmental models?

Furthermore, the FTA entails that the two states should enhance their co-operation in a number of areas, including on labour matters and the environment.

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And the issue of human rights:

the establishment of diplomatic relations in 1971 and formalizes a regular political dialogue that will inter alia address issues that are outlined in the statement, including human rights, gender equality, labour issues

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Is this some sick kind of joke?

And this is the pinnacle of Nigel Farage's example!

Keep 'em coming. Best thing for destroying the 'out' campaign.

Edit: And there's more:

China is now Iceland´s 4th biggest importing country and the biggest trading partner in Asia.

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Well hell, that's brilliant. Iceland's over a barrel!

Edit 2: What happens when UN decides that China's human rights record ain't what it ought to be and introduces sanctions?

Himaginn said:

Fire and Ice said:

Himaginn said:

I wish I had a transcript of that George Galloway interview with Nigel Farage. I could quite happily spend a few hours pulling apart Nige's claims!
Nigel quote a bilateral deal that Iceland, a country in the EFTA, has recently completed with China.
But:

EFTA’s trade strategy has evolved progressively beyond the confines of the European continent. Since the late 1990s, the EFTA States have "gone global" with the objective of maintaining and strengthening their competitive position in the world. Through EFTA, the Member States have created one of the world's largest networks of preferential trade relations. EFTA's network of free trade agreements (FTAs) secures economic operators preferential access to markets currently of around 440 million consumers outside the European Union.

Click to expand...

http://www.efta.int/free-trade
So, it would appear that Iceland is not free to make it's own bilateral deals!
Just like F&I claims and allegations, they're easily dealt with!
I suppose Nige was thinking, "I can make a claim about Iceland. No-one's going to bother to check if it's accurate or not."

Click to expand...

It would appear however you want it to appear.. The UK is not Iceland and so is big enough and ugly enough to cut its own trade deals without having to have anything to do with EFTA.

It seems that Mr Farage was right.... https://www.mfa.is/foreign-policy/trade/free-trade-agreement-between-iceland-and-china/

He's frequently right about stuff

Click to expand...

That's brilliant! See you can provide substantive evidence when you want to!
The problems are:

The negotiations were launched in 2007. Four rounds of negotiations took place during 2007-2008 and two rounds in December of 2012 and January 2013. The Iceland-China Free Trade Agreement will enter into force when legal procedures of acceptance in both countries have been concluded.

Click to expand...

So it's only taken 9 years!
What's more, it ain't finished yet!

The Iceland-China Free Trade Agreement will enter into force when legal procedures of acceptance in both countries have been concluded.

Click to expand...

What's more:

The most important Icelandic export product to China is fish and other marine products, amounting last year to 90% of the total.

Click to expand...

So we've got a lot of fishing to do!
And the import tariffs will take place gradually over 5 to 10 years. What a big deal!
What's more will we have to agree to China's environmental models?

Furthermore, the FTA entails that the two states should enhance their co-operation in a number of areas, including on labour matters and the environment.

Click to expand...

And the issue of human rights:

the establishment of diplomatic relations in 1971 and formalizes a regular political dialogue that will inter alia address issues that are outlined in the statement, including human rights, gender equality, labour issues

Click to expand...

Is this some sick kind of joke?

And this is the pinnacle of Nigel Farage's example!

Click to expand...

Can you answer a simple question or am I asking too much ?

gasbanni said:

Can you answer a simple question or am I asking too much ?

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You're not asking a question! Other than "Can I ask a question?"
Hint. They usually have a question mark at the end.

BTW, when we enter into a FTA with China, they've got a lot of steel to dump!
And probably a load of other stuff as well!

Fire and Ice said:

Himaginn, what on Earth would a ranting Commie such as yourself know about trade?... Just work on your five year plan to build a tractor and come up with a new plan for starving Ukrainians to death..

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Even grasping at dopey allegations, silly insults and incredulous claims now.
Your idol, Nigel, would be ashamed of you.

Himaginn said:

BTW, when we enter into a FTA with China, they've got a lot of steel to dump!
And probably a load of other stuff as well!

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The best thing which could be done with regard to trade with China is pretty much to embargo it entirely.

Himaginn said:

gasbanni said:

Can you answer a simple question or am I asking too much ?

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You're not asking a question! Other than "Can I ask a question?"
Hint. They usually have a question mark at the end.

Click to expand...

Your not as observant as I expected, there's a post especially for you. You'll see the question on it. You're obviously fixated on F & I !!

PBC_1966 said:

Perhaps because the EU would want the trade?

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I've seriously reduced the quotes to make it easier for the reader to follow the discussion. My apologies if that doesn't fulfill the intention.
Of course the EU wants the trade. Do you think it would want to lose the exports to UK? Of course not!
Do you think it would want to lose the specialities that UK has to offer? (Scotch! Which is currently a fair bit cheaper in EU than UK. So much for your propounded theory of harmonisation of VAT, etc )
But it would do so at rates beneficial to EU! Just taking one example. It could easily raise the import duty of Scotch to bring the price in line with current UK prices!

PBC_1966 said:

As above. Maybe the EU wants the imports more than it wants whatever that higher tariff happens to be.

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Perhaps it can have both. But consumers would perceive the higher prices and transfer their desires to other products. Products which are comparative to current UK products. For example, as used above; Scotch whisky could be replace by Breton Whiskey (no import duties) or Japanese whiskey, etc.

PBC_1966 said:

But the point is that if the U.K. is getting out of the EU to avoid being bound by all of the bad things that such membership brings, why would the U.K. then even want to be in the EFTA when that itself would result in retaining many of those bad things?

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Because it would have to start from scratch on creating trade agreements. We've seen, by Nige's (and thanks to F&I) hilarious example of the China agreement. which has taken 9 years and is still not in force, and only not only includes fish exports to China (probably includes some clauses to allow Chinese fishermen into Icelandic waters as well!) but also includes collusion on Human Rights and the environment!

PBC_1966 said:

But what about the increase in trade which could be achieved by way of beneficial deals with the rest of the world, which the U.K. would be free to pursue without interference from the EU? Even if withdrawal did result in significant loss in trade with the EU over time, that in itself it not necessarily a bad thing.

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Perhaps, but the Iceland example shows how long it takes. In the meantime our trade with EU is decreasing at an alarming rate.

PBC_1966 said:

The U.K. could seek to increase trade with other Commonwealth countries again, trade which, incidentally, in some cases has been about decimated since the U.K. joined the EEC (look at how much trade exists now between the U.K. & New Zealand or between the U.K. & Australia compared with 1972, for example - is it any wonder that the latter feels rather rejected hence the talk about abandoning the Commonwealth and becoming a republic?).

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Yes of course we could open negotiations with the common wealth countries. But the loss of trade with UK that they have now adjusted to, have allowed other homegrown industries to replace. They ain't going to relinquish that easily and we'd have to bend over backwards to entice them with lower prices. (Or we could invade them... again. )

PBC_1966 said:

Fine. The U.K. should not be bullied into accepting some kind of second-class EU membership (EFTA) and all the bad things that brings just because the EU won't grant lower import duties.

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OK. we won't be bullied! Just like Russia won't be bullied. Argentina won't be bullied, etc. Where do we go from there?

gasbanni said:

Himaginn said:

gasbanni said:

Can you answer a simple question or am I asking too much ?

Click to expand...

You're not asking a question! Other than "Can I ask a question?"
Hint. They usually have a question mark at the end.

Click to expand...

Your not as observant as I expected, there's a post especially for you. You'll see the question on it. You're obviously fixated on F & I !!

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You're talking in riddles. You've been absent for days and then you return with a question, which is "Will you answer a simple question?"
Don't derail the discussion again!
Keep to the topic, if you can!

I'm aware it's your thread, but the topic is EU, in or out? I know you didn't want a discussion, but you got one.
Now you want to ask a question. Don't expect any obligation of a reply!

PBC_1966 said:

Himaginn said:

BTW, when we enter into a FTA with China, they've got a lot of steel to dump!
And probably a load of other stuff as well!

Click to expand...

The best thing which could be done with regard to trade with China is pretty much to embargo it entirely.

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I don't disagree. So Iceland's FTA with China was not a great deal then?
And Nige's shining example was a bit silly?

Keep bashing those keys Himaginn. If you keep going for a million years or so you may actually accidentally produce a sentence that makes sense...

Himaginn said:

PBC_1966 said:

Himaginn said:

BTW, when we enter into a FTA with China, they've got a lot of steel to dump!
And probably a load of other stuff as well!

Click to expand...

The best thing which could be done with regard to trade with China is pretty much to embargo it entirely.

Click to expand...

I don't disagree. So Iceland's FTA with China was not a great deal then?
And Nige's shining example was a bit silly?

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Slow negotiations should work in your favour, the slower the negotiations, the longer it is that you can claim benefits.