15mm gas pipe for boiler

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Warwickshire
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I am having a worcester 18ri (18Kw) boiler installed in my garage as a replacement to an old 15Kw Ideal classic currently installed in my kitchem. The existing boiler takes its gas feed using about 2metres of 15mm pipe into a 22mm feed that is about 8-10 metres from the metre.

The guy installing the new boiler has extended the existing 15mm pipe from the old boiler now extending to about 7m of 15mm pipe. This worries me as the wORCESTER manual states the 18ri should use 22mm. I spoke to the heating engineer about this and he told me that providing the working pressure is fine then this shouldnt be a problem. As I am concerned it might cause me future problems I need some advice:-

1.) Does it sound reasonable to operate an 18KW heat only boiler on 7metres of 15mm pipe further connected via 22m to the meter?

2.) Is he correct that providing the working pressure is ok then it should be fine?

3.) Reading the manual it states that the inlet pressure should be 16.5-20.5mbar when set at maximum with a drop of no more than 2.5mbar from meter to boiler test point. I assume this should be tested with any other gas appliances there are in the house on full also? We only have a gas fire ie no gas hob so I intend to ask him to take the reading when the fire is also on full. Is that the right thing to do?

4.) I also notice in the manul that it states that the pressure drop over internal pipe work (meter to bolier) should not be amore than 1mbar. Am I correct to assume this would be measured at the bolier inlet test point also, but without the boiler firing?

5.) Should the engineer measure the meter pressure with gas appliances on or off as the reference? I understand this should be 19-23mbar.

6.) If the gas pressure at the bolier is borderline ie 16.5mbar in the middle of summer when nobody has their heating on i sit likely to drop in winter when everyone else is using their boliers etc. I guess I am asking if the mains gas pressure in the UK fluctuates much between summer and winter etc.


Thanks for any guidance. I am tempted to ask the guy to simply replace teh 15mm pipe with 22mm, but he seems like a nice chap who knows his stuff.
 
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Fully load the gas installation (all appliances running at max) and then measure inlet pressure at the boiler with boiler running flat out as well (CH and HW calling). ALso get him to carry out flue gas analysis under this 'loading' condition.

Did the guy fit a room thermostat. Can you select hot water or central heating alone? Is the cylinder fitted with a thermostat to control HW temperature?
 
All control is existing:-

room stat
hot water tank stat
Y plan so can have HW and CH at same time

Im not a heating engineer but just did some simple pipe calcs using a guide I found online and it looks like the 7M run on its own could not acheive the required flow rate of 1.96 with a 1mbar drop. And that is ignoring all the 22mm pipe work before it.

Taking into account the fire and the preceeding 22mm runs I defo need 22mm right up to the boiler and even then I coudl be looking at a 0.918mbar drop.

Will tell the engineer I am having 22mm pipe in.
 
He is correct in stating that it is OK as long as you have the requisite pressure at the boiler with all appliances burning at maximum rate. There is then no need to increase the pipe size. Do not insist on this if it is not necessary. Some boiler manufacturers cover their backs by stating a minimum pipe size. It is not in your own interest to antagonise your installer.
 
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7 mtrs of 15mm sounds a bit iffy to me! (I haven't got my pipesizing charts with me this week as I'm on Staycation) but it sounds too small
you could always ask GSR to do a free safety check once it is installed and notified (when you recieve your compliance certificate from GSR you will have an invitation to have a free safety check from GSR - go for it!) ;)
 
It sounds ok to me, but I have not looked my books. In reality it depends on the number of elbows and bends.

A Mysteryman says its the working pressure that is important, not the pipe size.

As far as I know Worcester are one of the companies that do insist on 22mm uninterupted from meter to boiler though, that doesn't mean your installer technically wrong or the boiler wont work within design specifications...
 
Oh dear, too many engineers following different aspects!

Firstly the maker will state a wider range of requirements because that seems to let the installer off the hook!

The reality is that the maximum allowable pressure loss at the boiler with everything ( including the boiler ) working on maximum is 1.0 mB. Thats unlikely to be achieved with such a long length of 15 mm tube!

Thats what he should be providing and thats what Gas Safe will insist he does if you complain to them! Let him show you the readings on his digital manometer. Or as a cheapskate he probably only uses a water gauge which can be misread to make 2 mB look like 1 mB.

Its unfair to me and any others who do this job properly when those who do a substandard job are allowed to get away with it.

I quote to do the job properly and that costs more! So my quote becomes uncompetitive with the bodger cowboys! 22 mm tube is expensive compared with 15 mm.

Tony
 
How can we tell?

If we knew all the lengths and fittings then we could calculate something.

But the measured drop is always higher because the tables assume a proper joint. Often 50-100% higher!

As far as I am aware only Paul Barker reamers his pipes ends!
 
A 20kW boiler will consumer about 2m3 of gas / hour
and a 15mm pipe 6metres long can supply 1.9m3 of gas.
So just about there.
He's a bit of a skimper though. A 6 metre length of 22mm pipe would
have cost him all of about £15 more than 15mm.
 
that allows about one elbow then...


do WB books say anything about minimum working pressure...vaillants work down to a much lower pressure, IIRC..or aer WB instructions written to comply with gas regs...
 
i've tested vaillants which had a perfect ratio but inlet was only 9mb!
 
Im not a heating engineer, but I am a degree qualified electronics engineer so my maths and understanding of things is pretty good. As such I have done some reading and it seems the following is required:-

1.) Min working pressure at boiler test point should be 16.5mBar. And this may very well be possible over this pipework (assuming gas pressure at meter is sufficient)

2.) To meet Gas Safe regulations then the progressive pressure drop (meter to bolier with all aplliances running) measured at the boiler should not be more than 1Mbar. I AM SURE THIS WONT BE ACHEIVED WITH THE 15mm pipework.

I have downloaded some pipe sizing tables and worked this out for myself when taking into account all of the required flows (bolier and fire), pipe lengths, connectors, elbows etc and point 2 above will not be acheived and hence requires 22mm pipe. Incidentally an 18Kw bolier has a gas flow rate of 1.96 and according to the tables the max length of 15mm pipe for this is in the region of 5-6metres. So I will have more than a 1mbar drop in pressure over the 7metre 15mm section and I have calculated in the region of 0.6mbar over the 22mm pipework before it so a total of above 1.6mbar on teh complete run (too much).

So in summary, I am sure the bolier would work fine and the inlet working pressure would be fine, BUT the install woudl not meet the requirement of a max 1mbar drop across pipework from meter to bolier. I guess with future inspections this could result in my bolier being disconnected, and coudl also cause issues in the future if I wanted to connect additional gas appliances.

Cheers
 

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