2-way switch wiring drama...!

[barthompson]

Calling all electrically minded people...

I am currently thinking about changing some lighting wiring (to implement some home automation). However, before I change anything, I want to make sure I know how everything works now. Most of the house wiring is self explanatory, but the 2-way wiring in the lounge is baffling to me (a mere mortal).

I have shown below the two light switches and their wiring below. As you will see the first switch is 2-gang and the second switch is 3-gang. For ease, I have numbered the switches. Switches 1 and 3 corrrectly control (in a 2-way pattern) one set of downlighters. Switches 2 and 4 correctly control (again in a 2-way pattern) another set of downlighters. Switch 5 corectly controls the conservatory light (just 1-way wiring).

Now, I am keen to understand if anyone can explain to me which of the lettered cables goes where (ie which cables(s) go to the consumer unit, which go to the lights, which wires are live, which are neutral and which go to the other switch).

You will see I have shown green wires. These (as far as I can tell) are the unsheathed earth wires in 2-core cable which has had red tape wrapped round it and used in the wiring of the switches. A new one on me!!! Where there are little red wires not attached to anything, these are just that - wires hanging around in the wall box with no connection.

Anyway, any help and pointers appreciated. Im hoping someone is looking forward to a little problem solving!!

Just to reiterate...these switches all do work correctly!!

Untitled

• barthompson
• 5 Dec 2012
• 1

 

[EFLImpudence]

Are you sure that you have drawn switch 4 correctly?

It's all a mess and using the cpc (earth) as live conductors is not allowed.

As nothing can be relied on to be as it should be without being there to test which wire is which I am not sure if it is worth deciphering.

It will need reconfiguring or rewiring.


Anyway, firstly,
switch off and test for dead.

Remove green from 1com and terminate safely out of the way.
It will be live when power is on
Using a piece of red connect 1com to 2com and other red.


Does everything still work as it should.

You really need en electrician with testing equipment on site.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I am currently thinking about changing some lighting wiring (to implement some home automation).

Even though you are not electrically minded?

which are neutral

NONE OF THEM!

And you really, really should know that.

The fact that you think some of them might be neutrals shows, beyond any doubt, that you do not understand how lighting circuits work, and you don't have even the most basic knowledge of what a switch actually does.

You are a long way off from being competent to start installing home automation.

• http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=electrical+circuits+101
  
  
• http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=multimeter+101
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:lighting
  
  
• http://kevinboone.net/electricity.html
  
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/domesticinstallations.html
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:books
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics
  
  

 

[barthompson]

Woah, woah woah!!

Ok...let me correct my english in my first post - I am thinking of having someone install home automation modules for me. But before I spend in the region of £500 on a set of modules, I want to check they can be wired in such a way that achieves what I am looking for. As such, I am trying to assess what the wiring is like so I know whether to plow ahead or not.

I didnt mean to imply (but acknowledge that I did) that I would do the work myself. I have no desire to kill myself, or break the law!

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Whether you have home automation installed or not, you must get that wiring sorted out asap - it's a deathtrap.

And given that your house has clearly been ministered to by a dangerous f***wit I strongly advise having a full inspection done - don't rely on this being the only horror.

Until it is all sorted, if you have any metal light switches, stop touching them, and if any bulbs go in metal light fittings, don't replace them.

 

[bhm1712]

what kind of automation?

Surely if a qualified person is coming to install the stuff, then he should be the one who comes and does a site survey to decide whether its going to work or not? Sounds to me like your trying to pull a fast one on us - i dont believe your getting somebody in at all. Now some of us have moaned, you have changed stories to try and make us advise you.

If we knew what kind of automation then maybe we could help. Asking will it work with just that diagram is like saying ''will my home automation module work'' - we dont know because we dont know what you want it to achieve.

 

[securespark]

Your wiring as it is looks extremely dangerous. CPC's (the bare earth wires) must NEVER be used as a live conductor.

The fact you have some wired as such, plus missing earth continuity plus wires floating around in the box adds up to a potential shock risk.

You need the lighting rewiring. Chances are if it's like this in the lounge, it might be the same around the house.

The fact you used the word "correctly" implies you think some switches do not work as they should. Which are these?

EDIT: Beaten to it by faster typers (everyone in the world but me!)

 

[bhm1712]

without being there to test, we cannot say what connects to where. We can make an educated guess based on standard wiring configurations for 2 way switching, but it appears as though your lighting wiring is possibly not standard and so to make an educated guess or advise you would be tantamount to negligence.

Switch 4 as already stated looks dodgy - it appears as though there are 2 wires in the common terminal, and im not quite sure which of these will be live.

 

[rjm2k]

Can you post some photos of the wires in the switches just in case there is miss-communication going on here?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

it appears as though your lighting wiring is possibly not standard

"Possibly not"?

There is absolutely no doubt that is is not.

and so to make an educated guess or advise you would be tantamount to negligence.

No guesswork is needed - there is only one course to be advised, and that is to get it rewired as a matter of urgency.

Switch 4 as already stated looks dodgy

And switch 1.

it appears as though there are 2 wires in the common terminal, and im not quite sure which of these will be live.

If they are both in the same terminal then either both of them will be live or neither of them will be.

 

[barthompson]

OK...

Sounds to me like your trying to pull a fast one on us - i dont believe your getting somebody in at all. Now some of us have moaned, you have changed stories to try and make us advise you.

Firstly, bhm1712 - there is absolutely no reason for me to deceive you and accusing me of lying is completely unnecessary. I have every intention of getting a professional to install my home automation modules. I have an electrician that has done many jobs for me and in fact is at my house, as I type, installing some outdoor christmas lights. If I deemed it in any way appropriate, I could post his name, his firm's name and his mobile, but what's the point!?

I am looking to spend significant sums of money on home automation equipment. Before I spend this money, I want to ensure it can do what I want. The modules in question are Fibaro FGD211 dimmer modules which sit between the wires to the light and the light switch. I am told it is possible to wire them to enable them to work with 2-way wired switches. In fact, I have been handed a wiring diagram by a vendor and wanted to check if the wiring behind my switches enables me to do this.

I *thought* this would be a simple confirmation and so decided to look myself. The reason for my post is because I didn't understand the wiring. But, I am not an electrician. For all I knew, it was a normal configuration but didnt make sense to me as I havent been trained. As it turns out, the situation is far more complex than I had any reason to believe it would be. What has become clear from everyone's posts is that this wiring is absolutely NOT standard and not only is not understandable but is potentially dangerous. As such, I will speak to my electrician this evening about doing an audit and rewiring when he is next available.

Thank you to everyone who has posted helpful and purposeful feedback - much appreciated.

 

[bhm1712]

it appears as though your lighting wiring is possibly not standard

"Possibly not"?

There is absolutely no doubt that is is not.

and so to make an educated guess or advise you would be tantamount to negligence.

No guesswork is needed - there is only one course to be advised, and that is to get it rewired as a matter of urgency.

Switch 4 as already stated looks dodgy

And switch 1.

it appears as though there are 2 wires in the common terminal, and im not quite sure which of these will be live.

If they are both in the same terminal then either both of them will be live or neither of them will be.

Constructive criticism accepted.

I perhaps worded several things incorrectly, I said possibly because i am unsure as to whether the diagram is concurrent with what is actually there, but as for the earths etc ....yes its wrong.

As for the switch 5 common having 2 cables i really shouldnt have commented because i really dont know whats going on. If switch 5 is operating a single lamp, then is the switch getting its permanent live from the green earth cable, or from the cable connected to switch 4 common? if this is the case, what is the green being used to feed?

 

[ricicle]

. I have an electrician that has done many jobs for me and in fact is at my house, as I type......

Then why aren't you asking him