Advice on Upgraded Heating Installation

[jonespr1]

Hi

My parents recently had their central heating completely upgraded from an old oil boiler and cylinder installation, installed circa 25 years ago to a new more energy efficient oil boiler (Worcester Greenstar Danesmoor 25/32) with an un-vented Tempest mains pressure hot water cylinder, there has been changes to pipework, new pumps, controls etc.

Whilst the work all seems to have been completed tidily, they have a few niggles with the installation, they have had the plumbers back this week, but no resolution since initial installation 3 weeks ago. I want to ensure that it's a case of genuine error/problem with the system, rather than poor workmanship, I have attached a picture of the pipework around the tank and was hoping with the commentary below someone may be able to offer their thoughts - I notice they haven't completed their details on the tank and haven't heard anything regarding a notification to Building Control, which is what raised my concerns initially, but they are Worcester approved installers with relevant qualifications.

• Dirty hot water, despite having emptied the tank several times and 3 weeks having passed since installation, the hot water is still discoloured, this is worse when the water hasn't been used i.e. in the morning. I assume this is because of the mains pressure hot water 'cleaning out' the old pipework in the house, however, should this not have passed by now? Is there any other possible explanations i.e. could the water tank be faulty and water leaching from radiators into hot water? There has been no loss of pressure in the system.
• Previously they had low pressure hot water, they now have higher pressure from the hot water than the cold, how is this possible?
• To the right of the tank in the picture is a timer, they were told that this was installed to re-circulate water around the system (and is set on for 3 hours in morning and 3 in afternoon) to ensure hot water was available quicker when required. I wasn't aware that the pipework in their house was configured to enable this (circular?) and have only heard of this in commercial installations such as a hotel. Whilst this seems a sensible idea, in practise it doesn't appear to make any difference and in my mind if the water is out of tank and circulating the un-lagged pipes in the house it is cooling and inefficient. Has there been a mis-understanding here or is this the likely purpose of this timer?
• I believe there is supposed to be a 300mm drop before a turn below the Tundish, which isn't the case, is this likely to be a problem, what are the implications?

I appreciate any advice you can offer as well as any other thoughts on the installation.

Thanks

Robert

 

[jonespr1]

The forum seems to have re-sized the image, making it more difficult to see, full size version here

http://postimg.org/image/6eixl6nj1/

Thanks

Robert

 

[jonespr1]

Anyone have any thoughts?

Robert

 

[simond]

Yep.

You are right about the 300mm. There is also a mx length of 600mm from the PRV to the tundish which looks like it has been exceeded.

No auto bypass.

Bottom half of cylinder not heated. Which is odd because that is where the stat has been placed.

No non return valve visible on secondary pump.

What appears to be stopcock on water inlet.

No insulation whatsoever.

Cheapo cylinder but thats just a personal opinion, clearly someone went into the merchants and said 'unvented cylinder please'

'What type?'

'Whatever's cheapest'.

So there you have it. We, and others, lose work all the time to installers like this. Customer says they were a bit cheaper.

 

[simond]

PS: Is the expansion vessel screwed to the wall, just wondering. Love the wallpaper btw.

 

[jonespr1]

Thanks for your response Simon.

What are the implications of the 300mm and 600mm not been met?

There are a couple of red valves which you can see at the top, right front which aren't in the picture, might they be the auto bypass valves?

I wasn't aware the bottom half of the tank wasn't heated, i figured those connections were for solar connection in the future, can the bottom half also be utilised regardless of whether you have solar?

In fairness it wasn't what I would consider cheap (£5k?), it was very difficult to find a OFTEC and Worcester approved plumber in mid wales, the choice was of two only.

Any thoughts on the problems their facing regarding dirty water and their radiators seem to be heating at the same time as the hot water, but only slightly?

Appreciate you taking the time to reply.

Robert

Yep.

You are right about the 300mm. There is also a mx length of 600mm from the PRV to the tundish which looks like it has been exceeded.

No auto bypass.

Bottom half of cylinder not heated. Which is odd because that is where the stat has been placed.

No non return valve visible on secondary pump.

What appears to be stopcock on water inlet.

No insulation whatsoever.

Cheapo cylinder but thats just a personal opinion, clearly someone went into the merchants and said 'unvented cylinder please'

'What type?'

'Whatever's cheapest'.

So there you have it. We, and others, lose work all the time to installers like this. Customer says they were a bit cheaper.

 

[jonespr1]

I *think* it's floating!

I believe the wallpaper is just coming back into fashion

PS: Is the expansion vessel screwed to the wall, just wondering. Love the wallpaper btw.

 

[simond]

The implications are that bearing in mind the thing doesn't meet G3, they are unlikely to want to register it as you could complain to Building Control. The reality is that BC aren't usually that interested. We have many many rules and laws in the UK, we love making them but can't afford to enforce them.

The valves you refer to are on the cold water inlet section, so are irrelevant to the heating circuit.

There will be some heating and hot water zone valves somewhere; depending on how these were plumbed in will be no doubt be the reason for the lukewarm rads.

Basically it is a bum job, and looking at the lack of understanding and care in the airing cupboard one has to assume the standard has been consistent across the job.

My brother in law had a spectacularly lousy job carried out by a Worcester WAI, OFTEC card carrying, MCS registered, PAS 2030 accredited installer last year near Nantwich...... wonder if this lot are the same firm?

I wrote up the story on our blog;

http://hwch.myzen.co.uk/blog/2013/11/17/beware-approved-trader-websites/

 

[simond]

Actually, when I mentioned the auto bypass there shouldn't normally be a bypass on the cylinder primaries at all because the zone valves are not visible in the picture.

I'm a bit worried about your install, might be worth paying for another OFTEC regd G3 card holding person to give a 2nd opinion.

Preferably one who can tie his own shoelaces.

Did your installer fill out the benchmark forms for the cylinder and boiler?

 

[jonespr1]

Certainly sounds like they may need a second opinion then!

There are two valves by the boiler, must be them that are causing the issue then.

Really dissapointed to hear that, I was hoping it may have been a simple mistake!

Unfortunately, these guys were more local.

Your blig makes interesting reading and makes me wonder what else may be wrong....

The implications are that bearing in mind the thing doesn't meet G3, they are unlikely to want to register it as you could complain to Building Control. The reality is that BC aren't usually that interested. We have many many rules and laws in the UK, we love making them but can't afford to enforce them.

The valves you refer to are on the cold water inlet section, so are irrelevant to the heating circuit.

There will be some heating and hot water zone valves somewhere; depending on how these were plumbed in will be no doubt be the reason for the lukewarm rads.

Basically it is a bum job, and looking at the lack of understanding and care in the airing cupboard one has to assume the standard has been consistent across the job.

My brother in law had a spectacularly lousy job carried out by a Worcester WAI, OFTEC card carrying, MCS registered, PAS 2030 accredited installer last year near Nantwich...... wonder if this lot are the same firm?

I wrote up the story on our blog;

http://hwch.myzen.co.uk/blog/2013/11/17/beware-approved-trader-websites/

 

[jonespr1]

Thanks for the advice Simon, I agree it seems a sensible step.

Not aware of any completed paperwork, certainly none that was left behind.

Robert

Actually, when I mentioned the auto bypass there shouldn't normally be a bypass on the cylinder primaries at all because the zone valves are not visible in the picture.

I'm a bit worried about your install, might be worth paying for another OFTEC regd G3 card holding person to give a 2nd opinion.

Preferably one who can tie his own shoelaces.

Did your installer fill out the benchmark forms for the cylinder and boiler?

 

[picasso]

I wonder where (if) the secondary hot water circuit returns to the cylinder

 

[MJGas]

Auto bypass could be elsewhere in the system. That gate valve on the coil primaries is to stop the coil resonating. There could be no check valve on the secondary return pump cant tell from the pics but is that a bronze pump?

 

[MJGas]

As has been said there is a stop cock on the Cold water inlet after the unvented control set and expansion vessel. This needs addressing straight away.

 

[jonespr1]

What are the implications of this making it urgent?

Thanks

Robert

As has been said there is a stop cock on the Cold water inlet after the unvented control set and expansion vessel. This needs addressing straight away.