ceiling speakers

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Hi,

I'm planning to have an audio system that can play music to selective speakers distributed across the house. I'm unsure on what system I want or how I want the speakers to be zoned at this stage. Presumably, if I take all individual wires from ceiling speakers to the point where the amplifier is, I will be leaving all my options open? Is there anything else that I need to consider?
This location will have power and an internet connection too.
 
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Is there anything else that I need to consider?

Volt drop along the speaker cables.

With low impedance speakers the cable have to be very low impedance. A cable with a 4 ohm loop resistance feeding an 8 ohm speaker will reduce the volume at the speaker and affect the tone balance.
 
There are lots of things to think about ranging from the quality of the speakers, the thickness of the speaker cabling required, fire ratings (you need fire hoods for speakers installed below living areas), sound penetration in adjacent rooms, what your sources will be, how to get those sources to the various rooms, how to zone and group the rooms, individual room volume control / grouped volume control /whole house volume control, audio sync - will the rooms play the same source without timing lags causing echos, what streaming sources you might want to use and the compatibility of the file formats, whether you want a central music library for your own iTunes/MP3 library, ease of use for others in the house......... and when you've gone through most of that it's then a case of working out how much it will cost and whether you can afford it.

Here's some threads along similar lines
//www.diynot.com/diy/threads/radio-in-open-plan-lounge-kitchen-diner.427264/#post-3344798
//www.diynot.com/diy/threads/bose-soundtouch-535-surround-sound-system.445404/#post-3495427

//www.diynot.com/diy/threads/metal-speaker-enclosures.427507/#post-3324121


I've fielded questions from forum users and from clients who started off with seeing cheap in-ceiling speakers on Ebay for around £20-£60 per pair and who though those would be a good start for multi-room. They're not. They sound lousy. I know this because I've been to homes where customers had the electrician install these and it sounded rubbish so they called me in to fix it. There isn't much that can be done after the fact. Unfortunately the answer is almost invariably "rip it all out and start again with proper gear". I've done that a few times. On other occasions the home owner has said "I'll think about it" which is code for "not a blooming chance and you'll never hear from me again" :ROFLMAO: What they're left with then is a white elephant; it's a system that's a waste of money.

Ceiling speakers worth installing cost a minimum of £250/pr + the cost of fire hoods - £70-£100/pr.
For voltage drop over distance you compensate with cable thickness. 100% pure copper cable is the thing to have, not the cheap copper coated aluminium (CCA) rubbish. As a rough guide 20 mtrs of thin bell wire will lose around 30-50% of all the power you put down the cable, and losses will be higher if it's the CCA rubbish. 1.5mm 49 stand or 79 strand pure copper cable will lose some power but not nearly as much; roughly 10% at the same distance. A 2.5mm copper cable will lose about 6%
If you're going for a central hub location in the house which houses the amps and sources then you'll need amps capable of delivering quite a lot of current and some real wattage. If you want a system to deliver 100W then you need amps capable of delivering around 3.5 Amps of current. You won't use 100W per channel but you do need the headroom (power reserve) to minimise audio distortion. This is not the time to use those little T-amps from Ebay. They crap out at around 8-12W for a clean-ish signal. A good 6 zone multi-channel amp is around £1400.
Finally you come to the source and control gear.

If you've got this far and are thinking "Holy crap!... I thought I could do the whole house for £500-£1000" then you're not alone. This is why I sell a lot of Sonos. It solves most of the above problems in a really neat way. It's cheap too once you start comparing the cost to doing proper multi-room.
 
wow!
Thanks for all the details.
My predicament is that I can't afford the system I would eventually want but have an idela opportunity to place the cables now before I board and plaster. I also suggested individual cables from every speaker so that we can pair these appropriately at a later date. the location they will all return to will be teh location of whatever kit I opt for.

With this said, are you able to advise on a sensible set of cables that I can use?
 
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I could suggest some cables, sure. But if I do it'll be the cables to do the job correctly and not some cheap-ass crap from Ebay. So the question back to you is "Do you want to do this right, or will you just ignore professional advice and go with the the person who tells you what you want to hear?"
 
I want to do this properly but won't be able to afford the full system as I suggested earlier. I do want to put in the right cables as a first step. With respect, I'm capable of making a decision when provided with the related information. Its certainly not a case of what I want to hear. There is no pre-disposition. Thanks for your help
 
The only thing you need to know about the cables is that they need to be thick. You don't need special expensive speaker cable, 4mm2 mains cable will be ideal.
 
I want to do this properly but won't be able to afford the full system as I suggested earlier. I do want to put in the right cables as a first step. With respect, I'm capable of making a decision when provided with the related information. Its certainly not a case of what I want to hear. There is no pre-disposition. Thanks for your help
You certainly don't need "fancy" cables (I think Winston is trying to take a side-swipe at the Hi-Fi industry there) but at the same time I would avoid pulling a load of cable that looks close to- or identical to the house mains supply cable. These cables are going to be in a long time. Do you really want to risk someone sending 240V mains to your speakers or amp? Stick with speaker cable so it's obvious to someone looking at the wiring without the benefit of a precise schematic that this is different to house electrical looms.

Right, on to the cable itself. Measure the distance from the amp location to the speaker furthest away. Add 30% to that then come back and tell us the length.
 
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Hi, the cable route to the speaker furthest away from the amp will be 12 metres. So lets call it 16 metres. Will await your response. Thanks
 
Right then, all you need is what I said in my first reply: a 42 strand or 79 strand all-copper speaker cable with a cross-sectional area of 2.5 square millimetres or more. Ideally for in-wall use the jacket should be Low Smoke Zero Halogen (LSZH) rated but I wouldn't lose too much sleep over that. If the cable is listed as 'Oxygen Free' then that won't hurt, but don't go paying a big premium for that as ordinary 100% copper speaker cable is already pretty pure. The only thing I would insist on is a clearly visible polarity marking. Basically you want to be able to see easily which which of the two conductors you have connected red or black.

That's all. What you buy and from where makes little or no difference so long as you adhere to the basic specs laid out above. :)
 
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Thanks @Lucid. I've been scoring the net today. I will need around 100m. Does this seem suitable?
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Thanks, you've been incredibly helpful.
Also, is there any exact science in where I should be situating ceiling speakers? My room is 4.7m x 9m. I was planning to put 4 speakers in the middle of the room, in the format of a square
 
No exact science, placement of speakers is a black art.

The furniture in the room is part of the room acoustics and will affect the sound that you hear.

Hard furniture reflects sound waves, soft furniture absorbes them. Reflections mean you hear the sound twice, one direct from the speaker and then a few milliseconds later the reflected sound reaches your ears. The efect is minimal and most people don't notice it. At the other extreme a few people ( audio fanatics ) line the walls and ceiling of their music room will sound absorbing material and have thick carpets to reduce reflections.

And things change on a daily basis.

Glass window panes reflect sound back into the room, closing the curtains alters the acoustics.

This site seems to be giving sound advice ( pun not intended )

http://classicalbumsundays.com/room-acoustics-tears-alan-sircom/
 
Surely anyone interested in good audio acoustics would not put speakers in the ceiling anyway.
How would 4 speakers in a square give a proper stereo effect?
 

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