Diagnose wierd starting problem on Ford Focus TDci 1.6 (2009

[peterboulton]

Hi,

I'd really appreciate some wisdom on my Ford Focus TDCi 2009 1.6 starting problem.

The succinct version is that occasionally it fails to start! There is a clicking (ticking?) noise from the engine (about twice per second) when I turn the key but the starter fails to turn. From my research so far I believe this to be the noise of the starter solenoid.

Recently (this has been going on for months and a Ford dealer has failed to reproduce or diagnose the problem but charged me £90 for the labour) I have tried wacking the car into gear and pushing it a couple of inches and then retrying. I've only done this 3 times so far but each time the car has then started instantly. On other occasions when it starts fine I sometimes hear one (starter solenoid) tick and it starts. Other times it just starts as usual.

There seems to be no correlation on whether the car has been standing or driven.

Even more strangely, it was doing it a lot back in Feb. and I called the AA out. They cleaned the earth connection on the body and it ran perfectly through to the end of July. I tried the same tactic once it started doing it more frequently in July but it only lasted a week or so.

Although the history confuses it somewhat, do you think my latest theory - deadspot or similar in the starter motor - is likely to be the explanation? And starter replacement the solution?

(FWIW the Ford dealer updated the instrument cluster software and said if the problem recurred they recommended a replacement instrument cluster. I struggle to understand that diagnosis but to be fair to them the car didn't exhibit the behaviour while it was with them.)

Advice and thoughts most appreciated, thanks!

Pete

 

[Mursal]

Low voltage across the starter motor causing a lazy starter or the starter itself has a voltage drop. The solenoid hasn't the power to engage the starter to the engine, so when you move the engine in gear, you make life easier for the lazy starter.
1. Battery voltage must be above 10Volts when cranking
2. This should be measured at the starter motor when cranking
3. If you have full battery voltage across the motor when cranking you have
a starter motor problem.
4. Might be worth rechecking the earth points?

Not sure to be honest about the cluster change, someone might know more about this fix.

 

[Peter.N.]

Also check the voltage on the small terminal on the starter when the key is in the start position and the starter is not turning, if there is around 12 volts the starter/solenoid is faulty, no voltage and you have an electrical fault.

Peter

 

[Burnerman]

I'm not sure if I'm reading this one correctly, pete, but rocking the car on gear was a technique used with the old inertia starter which used to stick in mesh......there's no application for that now as the starter pinion is pulled out of mesh by the starter solenoid return spring.
No matter.....your problem is caused by a voltage drop, either by the battery or cables or earth connection, or possibly by the starter giving up itself.
What's the cars mileage, and did Ford recommend a replacement starter at any time?
I too will remain from comment regarding the instrument cluster software......if that causes this problem then it is indeed time I packed it in!
John

 

[peterboulton]

I'm not sure if I'm reading this one correctly, pete, but rocking the car on gear was a technique used with the old inertia starter which used to stick in mesh......there's no application for that now as the starter pinion is pulled out of mesh by the starter solenoid return spring.
No matter.....your problem is caused by a voltage drop, either by the battery or cables or earth connection, or possibly by the starter giving up itself.
What's the cars mileage, and did Ford recommend a replacement starter at any time?
I too will remain from comment regarding the instrument cluster software......if that causes this problem then it is indeed time I packed it in!
John

Hi John,

Many thanks for your reply. So maybe it's coincidence that putting the car in gear an pushing it a couple of inches has resulted in a successful start? I guess a sample of 3 is not huge! (If you think my theory is off you should hear some of the theories my wife has come up with, like engaging switches in a certain order causes it to start etc..!)

The car has done around 70k miles. As far as I know it's on the original battery - I bought the car in Oct 2011 and I haven't replaced the battery yet. The headlights seem bright if I switch them on with the engine off.

It's odd that between Feb and July the problem 'went away'. Other than the AA man undoing the earth and cleaning the body end nothing was different in how the car was stored or driven.

No replacement starter ever recommended by Ford. When they had the car for a day to investigate they only had my description of the fault and a video I'd taken, which, fwiw is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilSe2nplJFY. (Unfortunately I stupidly left the windows closed so you probably can't hear the clicking from what I assume is the starter solenoid!)

FWIW and for everyone's further amusement, this is what was written on my invoice from the Ford dealer who charged me £90 to investigate the problem:

"Carried out diagnostic test for non start fault, please note fault did not occur whilst vehicle was here. Carried out IDS checks and recorded fault codes fault code U1900 can communication bus fault error. Checked electrical connections in gem and bjb all OK, cleared fault codes and updated software for instrument cluster to latest level - customer to monitor. If fault continues suspect faulty instrument cluster"

I have no idea what some of the abbreviations mean but my bullshitometer is registering!

I'm not really a home mechanic so I was hoping that posting my question here would help me avoid unnecessary exploitation by the dealer! It seems from your response and also the others that while the fault is almost certainly starter related it's not necessarily the case that it's definitely a faulty starter motor.

Many thanks again!

Pete

 

[Mursal]

Might I suggest you take it to your local independent garage/auto-electrician, just ask for a diagnosis, before you commit to anything. 2009 main dealer will start to get bored, steering you to change up.

 

[Burnerman]

Thanks for the reply, Pete.
In the good old days, the starter ring gear would seriously wear in a couple of places, and turning the engine (pushing it in gear) would allow the starter to engage in part of the ring gear which was unworn. These days, with a pre engaged starter, the ring gear should last the life of the car. So, I think that (cure) was coincidence!
I would have hoped that Ford would have tested your battery performance automatically by now, but as said I can't comment on dashboard software!
A useful site for the study of such black art is www.bba-reman.co.uk
which could be worth a look.
John

 

[Dave54]

I'm probably well off the mark with this, but it's not a worn starter ring on the flywheel is it? The "ticking noise" could (I suppose) be the starter pinion rattling.

Only ever had this happen once, and that was on a grey Fergie, they had an inertia type starter and the whir from the motor was obvious as it's right by your feet. Sticking it in gear and pushing it over a bit moved the starter ring so the bad bit was no longer where the starter engages.

At least you could hand crank the Fergie. It's generally better to take it out of gear first though. . .

Too late! Burnerman's already covered the worn starter ring!

 

[Burnerman]

Was that the 4 cyl petrol Fergie, Dave?
John

 

[Dave54]

Yeah, petrol / TVO 4 cyl. Good little tractor but I didn't use it much so I let it go.

 

[Burnerman]

I came across one of those where the starter pinion was manually engaged by a lever, and the same lever then switched the starter current.......unless I dreamt it, of course
John

 

[peterboulton]

I've just been experimenting with the car. Headlights on with engine off, definitely not dim - not sure whether that exonerates the battery? The battery is Ford-branded so presumably is likely to be original?

Tried some starts. It did the same as before - i.e. (starter solenoid clicking, no start motor turning). I wacked it in 4th and pushed it an inch. It started first time! Switched engine off and tried a start. It did the same as before but rolling and retrying was successful. Ditto a third cycle.

The next time it didn't start I just held the ignition key to 'on'. It clicked a few times and then the engine started!

The other thing I noticed, which may be a complete red herring, but after I switched off the ignition and removed the key I lifted the bonnet. I could (just) hear a quiet, high pitched electronic type tone that went on for a minute or two. Then there was a quiet click and it stopped. Not sure where it came from - possibly the dashboard although I couldn't hear it in the car.

I'm not sure whether this adds to my original description or not, but if it does any further thoughts / suggestions will be gratefully appreciated!

Thanks.

Pete

 

[Burnerman]

A genuine AA trick to excite a grumpy starter is to thwack it one with a hammer - seriously! Maybe your idea is much of the same.
PeterN's suggestion about checking the small terminal on the solenoid is completely valid....as is ensuring all of the connections are tight.
Personally I'd recommend a replacement starter, but then again I'm not paying for it
I would guess your battery is original, and it is doing well. Do the lights dim if you get the engine to crank?
John

 

[peterboulton]

A genuine AA trick to excite a grumpy starter is to thwack it one with a hammer - seriously! Maybe your idea is much of the same.
PeterN's suggestion about checking the small terminal on the solenoid is completely valid....as is ensuring all of the connections are tight.
Personally I'd recommend a replacement starter, but then again I'm not paying for it
I would guess your battery is original, and it is doing well. Do the lights dim if you get the engine to crank?
John

Thanks John. I'll have a crank when the wife gets back from Brownies tonight and see what happens to the lights! If the battery was good would they dim?

I know how to check the voltage using the Focus console - it says 12.3V with the engine off.

Cheers,

Pete

 

[Dave54]

The last "starter" problems I had, ended up being a faulty ignition switch start position. It would click and so on, presumably momentarily energising the relay / solenoid, but it wouldn't crank. To cut a long story short, I changed the starter, before realising it wasn't that. . .
A small push button near the ignition cured that fault
Really though without making proper electrical tests and checking things mechanically it's only suggestions.

Now off topic. Someone said to me about that mechanical engagement thing on the Fergies John. might have been the very early ones? Mine had the gear lever start position. Some of them had a button you had to press to select that position on the gate. Mine didn't seem to have that. Apparently they made a six cylinder in limited numbers (if not as a prototype) as well. I suppose that was the Triumph 6 engine.