Do I have a Party Wall (in fact any wall at all!!) ?

[gerbiljoe]

We live in an old terrace property (pre 1850). Our property is a different style and height to one of our neighbours (also old), and is set slightly back...so I don't think they were built at the same time.
On ground floor between our two properties runs an old cobbled drive. Each side at the front being a solid brick gate posts all the way up , nicely obscuring exactly how our property adjoins our neighbours from ground view.

On the first floor directly, and above our drive, is a bedroom belonging to our house, joining up to our neighbours property on his side.

My neighbour is adamant that the wall running to the side of our drive is completely his. Consequently, he has drilled a large vent hole right through it from his commercial property next door ! (no warning or consultation !). All planning regs. aside (which I'm sure he has broken), how can I determine if our bedroom is resting on this wall and that is in actual fact just as likely to be ours ?. Are there some things that would proove this / places to look in these old properties ?....As I pointed out to him, I don't think the fresh air is holding our bedroom above the ground...... do you !?!?

If however, our bedrooms bricks & rafters ARE simply butted some how into his wall on the second floor, does this make it a party wall below ???

 

[footprints]

Who owns the passageway below? If it's your neighbour it sounds like you may have a flying freehold, did you solicitor point anything out about this when you bought? You might need to grease the palm of a solicitor to get accurate advice.

Certainly worth doing some searches on flying freeholds to see if any similar situations to yours crop up.

Regards,
footprints

 

[jeds]

Bit difficult to follow - a sketch or photos would be useful. Historical maps can be useful. Does your property show up before the adjoining? You could also download a copy of the adjoining land registry plan. That would tell you the date of construction. From here:

http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/public/faqs/how-can-i-get-a-copy-of-a-title-register-andor-title-plan

Am I right in thinking this vent being installed will expel air or something over your land. If so that is trespass.

 

[gerbiljoe]

We own the land below the passage way - he has a ROW along it to the side door of his shop (not used for public access though) along with a couple of people living in houses to the rear ..no issues with that.

The property has been in my familys' possession since 1862 ....so no real help as far as purchase goes, as its simply been handed down through the generations.

Its difficult to say who's building pre-dates who's, as it right in the middle of a village where probably some type of structures either side have always stood. I believe that our house has been alterted several times during its life - currently we have a Georgian facade..their building could be a little older in its current form.
I'll check out the link above for clues thanks....sorry not really techie enough to do uploads and drawings ... !

 

[^woody^]

Ownership would be detailed or inferred from the property deeds

Bare in mind that walls, ownership, responsibilities and boundaries are all different things

 

[gerbiljoe]

Well, I've downloaded title plans for both properties - neither give a build date

What are the implications if his is the older property ??....would a seperate wall to support our bedroom have been more...or less likely to have been built ?? ...it seems unlikely that they were built or altered the same time as the brickwork is different and the proprty next door is 3 storey and ours just 2.

 

[gerbiljoe]

Ownership would be detailed or inferred from the property deeds

Bare in mind that walls, ownership, responsibilities and boundaries are all different things

There's no mention in the Land Registry of walls / boundarys (bear in mind my parents only registered their property with L.R., just 4 years ago !!! The drive way is clearly on our deed though along with ROW agreements afforded.

My parents have a box of deeds (as they own it outright) which I have seen and "tried" to read - but they are quite ancient, lots of pig skin stuff, mostly written in old english - the information contained extremely difficult to follow !!!! and I can't recall anything relating to boundaries..............just to make maters worse my elderly parent have "mis placed " their deeds at the moment .......daft as it sounds they have a large and rambling house full of clutter !

 

[gerbiljoe]

If it helps, I measured what is our end pillar wall on the street side (where our gate pillar meets his property on the street facade) ..it was 2 bricks across, or 18.5 inches.....then I measured best I could immeadiately behind the gate pillar, standing on our driveway (not easy as the building starts narrowing as soon as you down the drive way), this was 1.5 bricks width or 13 inches....not sure it proves anything though, .....as it might only prove our driveway goes very narrow, very quickly ????

 

[gerbiljoe]

Well, I've done a little research into both properties.....looking at tythe maps (free on line) from 1842 it would appear both our properties were once entirely separate but owned (but not lived in) by the same person.

It seems likely then, at some point in the 1850s -60s, that he gave rise to the rebuillding of our property so it joins the other property on th first floor (with the drive way running under & below) .......and that possibly they both share the same wall...which would technically be our neighbours wall.

I still can't get a definitive answer as to whether that makes the wall a party wall or not ? Logic says that if he took it down, our bedroom would collapse? but some builders have told me that where there is no room as such against it (just our drive) then that's not considered a party wall ?....getting more confused by the minute !

 

[ivixor]

Logic would suggest that unless the boundary of your land is obviously somewhere else, it's a normal party wall and the boundary runs down the middle of the wall. The fact that there is no room against the lower part of the wall is neither here nor there. What if you put a door on the front of the drive and called it a garage?

If so, by breaking your half of the wall, he neighbour has potentially committed criminal damage to your side of the wall. This is a job for a solicitor.

 

[gerbiljoe]

The fact that there is no room against the lower part of the wall is neither here nor there. What if you put a door on the front of the drive and called it a garage?
.

....would it matter that I can't put a garage there (though we do have gates that enclose one side if we chose) as there are several properties that have ROW over the covered driveway to the rear ?