Does expansion vessel need mounting or can pipes support it?

[dupfold]

Hello

I've had a new 8L expansion vessel fitted but noticed that the new one hasn't been attached to the wall, as was the case with the old one. The bracket is there, but it's just not attached to the wall. As a result it's being supported by two pipes above vessel, and boiler case below which causes case to bend a little. If the boiler case is removed, then vessel is effectively just hanging from the pipes, and they move slightly as they adjust to take it's weight. All of this just don't seem right to me. Also I just noticed that the expansion vessel is installed at a slight angle (leaning to the right).

Due to various other issues as well (overheating, leaking pump valves etc), I had Smith and Byford engineer back round next day. He advised that due to the smaller size of this new vessel it wasn't possible to mount bracket to wall, but as it's very light weight it's perfectly fine the way it is and that he 'does it all the time'.

He said he did try to drill holes for mount, but the wall just started crumbling away. I didn't hear no drilling, can't see any new holes and wall is fine (outside brick wall). I pushed the issue further, but he was adamant that it's fine just the way it is, and to fit mount would require lots of pipe work etc. We left it at that, but it's still bugging me, so hopefully you guys can shed your views on this please?

1. Can the two pipes you see in the pictures below adequately support this 8L vessel, or should it be mounted via bracket?

2. If it's ok for pipes to support vessel, is it ok that they move slightly (1-2cm I guess) as they adjust to take full weight of vessel when boiler case is removed?

3. Is it ok that the vessel has been installed at a slight angle, or should it be perfectly straight?

The engineer certainly seemed to know his stuff regarding everything else he explained, but this one thing continues to bug me. As with all council contractors, they always seem to be in a rush due to far too many jobs booked for one engineer to possibly complete in a day. I can therefore understand why things may be missed or shortcuts taken in order to keep bosses happy.

I'm far from knowledgeable regarding this, but it appears for vessel to be mounted, it would have to be removed and perhaps pipes altered, all of which may be an unnecessary job for contractor to complete IF indeed it is perfectly acceptable and safe the way it is. Either way it would be great to get some clarification on this for peace of mind. If current install is not acceptable, what can I can say to convince him that it needs re-installing?

Thanks all

 

[Dan Robinson]

Very shoddy.

Needs to be screwed to the wall. But is a different position or orientation. How is the pressure to be set and checked with it like that?

 

[Dean744PiN5]

I went to a call last month where the vessel was only held by the pipe, the vessel failed and the pipework couldn't support the 18 kilos of water that had flooded the vessel and subsequently the pipe snapped and flooded the place.

 

[stardanny]

It should be fitted to wall, preferably on different wall for access to bottom for repressure of vessel.

Complain to their supervisor, this is a bad job.

Daniel.

 

[dupfold]

Hi all.

Many thanks for your replies and confirming my own thoughts on this.

Received call back from Smith and Byford today to book another visit to fit some other new parts, and so I took this chance to request supervisor visit. I explained that there was a dispute with me and engineer over the installation of the expansion vessel. I explained the issue and straight away woman went on defensive explaining that engineer who fitted it was one of their most senior engineer, so very unlikely any mistakes have been made. I explained that I got a second opinion and they too agreed that this installation is not safe as should it fill with water it could snap the pipes. She asked 'well who are these other engineers, are they gas safe registered'? Bizarre question as any layman should surely understand this is not right. I'm sure they will simply dismiss my second opinions if I advise I received them from a forum, unless of course any of you are 'gas safe registered'? lol

There was further back and forth, I asked for manager, got told 'they are all busy', then finally she advised she will need to get supervisor to call me back. At this rate I will be sitting freezing my nuts of at Christmas, although something I'm getting used to now. Boiler constantly overheating, which I was told the new expansion vessel should resolve, but it hasn't. I know things like this are complicated to diagnose as could be anything, but is there any one obvious thing I can ask them to check please? Heat exchange perhaps?

 

[Nige F]

Typical sub contract for council - all the good engineers that were direct labour were sacked decades ago - I was one (nice redundo ££ @ the time though) Sorry I can't advise as I'm neither Gas Safe nor familiar with modern boilers. Try contacting the council / your housing officer direct.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Several of us who have replied are qualified professionals and run our own businesses.

unless of course any of you are 'gas safe registered'? lol

 

[Newboy]

Just ask the next engineer to check the pressure in the expansion vessel!

And, when you next contact the company, call handler ask if she is GasSafe registered and qualified to give opinions on installs.

 

[Aquaheat]

Absolutely shocking install. Vessel needs repositioning to be able to check pressure and to be mounted properly. As mentioned above, if the diaphragm fails then the weight of water will bend or snap pipework.

There are at least 3 people who have commented on here that are Gas Safe registered including myself and all are of the same opinion. It is a sub standard installation and needs correcting for continuous safe operation and maintenance.

Jon

 

[simond]

I'm afraid that is par for the course with a council contractor.

But you need not fear, because not only did they send their most senior engineer, but they are 'working in partnership with your Council', are an equal opportunities employer, and probably ISO 9002 to boot.

So we are all wrong and Smith and Byford are right. Glad to see the tax payer's money is being invested wisely.

Talking of which, there are not one, but three £125K pa Directorships going begging at OFWAT, according to a half page advert in the Times this weekend.

 

[simond]

PS: What happens when the next S&B techhy takes the cover off the boiler?

 

[flameport]

Boiler constantly overheating, which I was told the new expansion vessel should resolve,

The expansion vessel is unrelated to the boiler overheating.

 

[dupfold]

Hi all.

Ok so another S&B engineer visit and although the issue should be self evident, I had to explain the problem exactly. He said 'should be fine', and basically repeated what last engineer said about the vessel being very light weight so pipes can hold it. I then relayed what you guys said regarding possible pipes bending/breaking should vessell fill with water again. He had a look around and advised best to move the expansion vessel to the airing cupboard upstairs. Can't quite recall exactly what he said next as was technical, but basically what I got from it was that the exit pipe (and gauge?) will remain where it is, and he will just move the expansion vessel upstairs. Does this sound ok? That's not going to have any adverse effect? My instant concern is that if this eventually started leaking water like the last one did, I likely wouldn't notice until it flooded, although guess the same could be said for the massive water tank in there (out of shot above green tank)!

As you can see from pics below it's likely he will install on the bottom level. I recon he will want to install on the left hand wall as less pipework to run. As you can see however there still needs to be access room left in order to get to the shower pump for maintenance, so I'm going to suggest that he installs on same wall and to the left of the shower pump, then for pipe work to run alongside left wall. I've done the measurements and it will fit. Do this sound acceptable and ok place to install? Is there anything else I need to be concerned about and watch out for?

With regards to the overheating, he took case of boiler and had a tinker for all of 30 seconds on the right hand side and said that it was overheating due to temp sensor not touching pipe (which he reset). Haven't tested properly yet to see if still overheats as weather been so mild haven't needed any heat, so boiler only comes on for half hour for water at the mo.

He's back on Monday to complete the job so hopefully I'll still have a working system come Christmas, and not swimming around in pools of cold flooded water instead! If that happens I'm sure I'll be told 'should be fine, keeps you clean and wakes you up'!

Thanks again all, your help is very much appreciated.