Door Frame Rebate Size?

[Mike82]

Good afternoon all.

I've just joined the forum as I'm wondering if somebody could offer me some basic carpentry advice.

I'm restoring an old Victorian property one room at a time. (I'm not a tradesman by any means but I'm fairly handy and can normally scrape by on a little bit of self taught know how - especially if I can pick the right people's brains!) I'm using as many reclaimed materials as possible, especially doors, for the authenticity aspect. One of the next jobs on the list is to replace the back door and frame. I've managed to source an original external door from a similar house a few doors away which I've had dipped to remove the old paint. I'm getting rid of the knackered UPVC one which was put in by a previous owner and basically putting the house back in period, how it should be.

Anyhow, the door thickness is 40mm. I'm going to be making the frame for it out of two pieces of timber screwed together, the front piece protruding 10mm to form a door stop, the other piece thick enough to form the rebate. What I need to know is how thick do I need the back piece to be to set the rebate? Do I do it the exact width of the door say 40mm or does it need to be a bit deeper for whatever reason, I.e allowing extra for paint thickness, both on the frame and door, or maybe to prevent the back edge of the door catching on the stop when opening and closing. If so, what depth would you do it?

I know this is probably basic stuff but wanted to make sure I get it right and take everything into consideration before I have the timber cut down.

Many thanks in advance.

Mike

 

[Mike82]

Wow I'm shocked! I thought that would be a fairly straightforward one for a decent chippy... Ok I'll try an easier one. If the door width is 880mm. How big should I make the opening? 882mm? 885mm?...

 

[Gerrydelasel]

If so, what depth would you do it?

I would make the rebate about 42mm. It is less objectionable if the door sits a little too far into the rebate, than if it sticks out a bit.
But have you considered making casing from three boards instead, then adding another three boards on top to create the doorstop? That way you can make the doorstop fit exactly to the door after it is hung...

If the door width is 880mm. How big should I make the opening?

Allow for about 3mm gap all round. However, I would make the opening fractionally too small, then plane the door a bit. Last thing you want is for the opening to be too big.

 

[Roger928]

Why bodge two pieces to make a frame?
Can't you just buy the correct timber? The ole victorian carpenters would just have gotten their rebate planes out.
I'd run it through my spindle moulder or the slider or both.
If someone is cutting the timber down for you its them you need to be talking too!

 

[vinn]

I'm shocked too, that it took you all that writing to ask a couple of one sentence questions - just saying.

External door frames have stuck rebates made from solid stuff - you dont plant stops or anything else on an external frame.
Moulded sections, architraves and trim are something else.
On three edges of a hung (to be painted) door I typically allow a two penny space all around.
You cut the bottom edge to allow for the FFL/draft excluder/threshold.
External frames take draft seals

 

[Mike82]

I would make the rebate about 42mm. It is less objectionable if the door sits a little too far into the rebate, than if it sticks out a bit.
But have you considered making casing from three boards instead, then adding another three boards on top to create the doorstop? That way you can make the doorstop fit exactly to the door after it is hung...


Allow for about 3mm gap all round. However, I would make the opening fractionally too small, then plane the door a bit. Last thing you want is for the opening to be too big.

Spot on. Thank you.

 

[vinn]

OP,
Its common courtesy to acknowledge all who give advice in a thread - perhaps you are not socially experienced?

The "spot on" advice is excellent as such but not as an answer to your question:
You referred to an "external door and frame" the advice you find so useful refers to an internal situation.
"Casings" come with stuck stops.
Linings have planted stops.
OP, I'll leave you to figure out why planted stops are unsuitable for external frames.

 

[Gerrydelasel]

OP,
OP, I'll leave you to figure out why planted stops are unsuitable for external frames.

I don't see why they're unsuitable, as long as they're wide? Glued and screwed they will be stronger than a solid piece of timber.

 

[Mike82]

OP,
Its common courtesy to acknowledge all who give advice in a thread - perhaps you are not socially experienced?

Likewise it is slightly discourteous to have a pop at someone at your first interaction with them for writing too much! It was my prerogative to set the scene and as it was my first post, give a little bit of an introduction!

Gerrydelasel answered the two questions I was looking for regarding rebate size and opening size. For the record I'm not going to be screwing on door stops on an external door frame like I would on an internal door. But anyway, how I was going to make the frame, wasn't what I was asking...

PS Thank you to everybody who contributed. The thread has given me a better idea of how to do it.

Roger928 I had not heard of a rebate plane - interesting!..

 

[vinn]

OP,
Then, as a first poster, dont try and be a smart pants, thats why I responded as I did. Your:
"Wow I'm shocked etc." & the "Spot on, thank you" business when it wasn't spot on in terms of your question, & you thought that you'd be snippy & ignore the other contributors - well these things dont fly in my book.

How can "making" the frame be separated from your questions & my advice? Did you first intend to "make " the frame utilising the "Spot on" advice & than re-arrange it later - "I'm not going to be screwing on door stops on an external door frame" but you were before I advised you.

 

[vinn]

Gerrydelasel,
No they wont. Its foolish to say that.
It seems that neither of you understand why solid stuff is used on external frames?
I'll leave it with you to investigate - You should start by looking at any wood frames in your house.

 

[Roger928]

I had not heard of a rebate plane - interesting

Veritas make stunning rebate planes. Their jack rebate plane makes rebates up to 57mm wide.
And of course you can get power tool rebating planes.

 

[Gerrydelasel]

I'll leave it with you to investigate - You should start by looking at any wood frames in your house.

I have both solid and planted in my house. I don't see the problem, and I don't understand why you can't just explain it to us?
(NB: the planted door stops are not just thin strips of moulding, they are boards the full width of the casing)

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Wow I'm shocked! I thought that would be a fairly straightforward one for a decent chippy... Ok I'll try an easier one. If the door width is 880mm. How big should I make the opening? 882mm? 885mm?...

Thanks. I love having my trade (and therefore myself?) demeaned or insulted...... And I don't always have time to answer questions immediately because I'm busy actually being a carpenter for a living. I know I'm not alone. Maybe Vinn feels the same way about things?

Like it or not Vinn is actually quite correct - a planted-on stop piece is completely unsuitable for an exterior door for a number of reasons (e.g strength, durability, draught exclusion, weather sealing, insulation, noise transmission, etc, etc). A rebate needs to be 3 to 4mm more than the thickness of an unfinished door to allow for the paint or lacquer, possibly more if a sealing strip such as Schlegel Aquamac 21 is incorporated and you should also take into account the need for the door to be able move with seasonal changes in weather, etc , BUT the hung door should have the rear surface absolutely dead flush with the face of the frame and it is never "less objectionable if the door sits a little too far into the rebate, than if it sticks out a bit" - it's just plain wrong (not to mention badly hung and more difficullt to fit a lock into). In fact if youy hang a door correctly it will actually end upflush to the frame at the hinge side and in doing so is less likely to bind, etc

I don't see why they're unsuitable, as long as they're wide? Glued and screwed they will be stronger than a solid piece of timber.

Sorry, Gerry, but you are wrong there. They are less strong. Try cutting a few dozen door frames out on a refurb and you'll get the picture.

 

[Mike82]

Nobody is insulting anybody's trade bud. I presumed (obviously wrongly) that the rebate thickness question merely required less advanced know-how than perhaps many other aspects of the trade and therefore would warrant a relatively easy, quick answer...

Now if I'd have asked how to find out the rise of a 2m segmental arch I'd have expected a slower response...

PS No, what Gerry is describing here in his pictures isn't really how I meant to make the frame. Anyway I've had a titfull of this discussion.

See yerz!