Door Frame Rebate Size?

[Gerrydelasel]

Sorry, Gerry, but you are wrong there. They are less strong.

Sorry but this is simply not true. A good PVA glue, combined with screws, is far stronger then the wood itself. Durability, draught exclusion, weather sealing, insulation, noise transmission, resistance to cupping, are all no worse (or even better) with a planted stop, assuming the final assembly has the same dimensions as a solid casing.

 

[vinn]

Gerrydelasel,
you are now in the area of fantasy - you are simply wrong against common sense, and how external frames have AFAIK always been sectioned.

A significant reason not so far mentioned is that stuck stops provide security.
Planted stops could be prised off.
The stop screws you put so much faith in would be accessible.

 

[Gerrydelasel]

The stop screws you put so much faith in would be accessible.

True, although the glued face is still stronger than the wood by itself so would not prise off any easier than solid wood.

 

[Nige F]

You could use clutch screws

 

[vinn]

Clutching at straws here: what's the next suggestion - bolt the stop to the wall?
With anything suggested so far I could have the planted stop prised off in less than a minute.
Not because I''m any kind of hot shot, far from it, simply because its that easy with a few tools.

 

[Roger928]

Mebbe for the someone like the OP who probably has a limited tool/machine selection, laminating is an option? And he seems intent on doing it anyway.
He's never heard of a rebate plane so obviously a beginner.

Gluing on the face is strong ... no? Weather proof glue?
A few tacks and no screws needed? Might work OK. Not saying its convention.
Rules can be bent in every trade.

We use cascamite glue. Gallons of the stuff mixed from powder when laminating plywood to large trusses and an odd time we need to remove the ply it comes off in little pieces ripping chunks out of the timber substrate below.
We have about 60 trusses to get out this week. Each spanning over 40' feet.
Held together with cascamite glue and 2" nails.

 

[chappers]

I agree with regards to glueing two pieces of wood together. A properly glued joint should be as strong as the wood it's self.
I'm sure every chippy has split a glued joint and seen wood from the opposite side of the joint ripped out. However it's just not the way to create an external door frame. But I would say glued and screwed would be just as hard, if not harder to split out with a chisel as the rebate on a single piece of wood. Either way the stops not the security of the door anyway.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

We use cascamite glue. Gallons of the stuff mixed from power .....
.....We have about 60 trusses to get out this week. Each spanning over 40' feet.
Held together with cascamite glue and 2" nails.

OK, so you use a glue which is not really readily available to a DIYer and as you are doing gluelam you'll be ensuring that the faces of the timber are clean, accurately machined, flat, etc and your clamping regime will be correct - right number of clamps, and possibly heating to ensure that the glue sets at optimum temperature or possibly an RF glue curer instead. The point is that even on site a chippy doesn't have those sort of options and so the quality of the glue joint suffers accordingly - and becomes suspect. Especially in colder temperatures like now (we are already having to watch out for chalking when glueing out on-site). Your glulams will probably be used on the inside of a building structure, such as for roof supports, and as such will be fully protected from the weather by the roofing fabric. A door frame, on the other hand, will spend its' life facing directly outside and into the weather, so it's lifetime before failure could be as short as one winter. If you consider the way in which doors and windows esp. sashes) are traditionally made and protected it is rather obvious that traditional designs all go out of their way to avoid exposing glue joints - because they tend to fail in direct exposure to weather. I live up in the Pennines where we get more than our share of wet, stormy weather and you'd possibly be surprised at how quickly poorly made stuff deteriorates at 1000 feet above see level on an unsheltered west facing site

Don't get me wrong, I've used UF and MF glues in the past for joinery assembly and they are really good. But they are in a different league to PVA.....

 

[Roger928]

so it's lifetime before failure could be as short as one winter

Well he can strip it off in the spring and re do.
It will be like yearly maintenance until he saves up enough to buy a nice rebate plane.

 

[vinn]

Whats wrong and cheaper in money and time than buying moulded frame stuff from off the shelf?

"stuck stops provide security" - stuck stops as opposed to planted stops: my meaning is obvious.
Who says that stuck stops are " the security of the door"? Please answer?
Bricks & mortar are not the security of the house but done properly they sure help.

JobAndKnock, this gets more bizarre by the post - these guys are somehow indicating that joinery Mfr's have been doing it wrong.
Personally, probably just like yourself, I've knocked up a number of frames and linings on site, I've occasionally ripped, planed, moulded & rebated with a mixture of power tools - and I've never used glue.
Working for wages I would have been run off site if I even talked any of the above never mind started gluing on frame stops & mooched around windswept bitterly cold shells fooling around with cascamite - because its stronger..

 

[chappers]

these guys are somehow indicating that joinery Mfr's have been doing it wrong.

Who has said that ?
Sometimes it's about finding a work around for a DIYer without the access to the tools or knowledge that the rest of us have.

 

[Dave54]

Who has said that ?
Sometimes it's about finding a work around for a DIYer without the access to the tools or knowledge that the rest of us have.

On the other hand we have all surely seen work arounds by DIYers which are less than ideal, and leave the job to be redone after a relatively short time. Any glue line in timber exposed to weather is going to be less ideal than solid wood. Even assuming everything is done perfectly.
If people want to do the work themselves, and do it properly, then they really need to get the right tools.

I've seen at least one door I can think of where the wood had rotted behind a glued on planted stop.

As already said. What's wrong with bought in ready machined frame material?

 

[Nige F]

Anyway why not bolt the lot to the wall

 

[vinn]

You said that, of course, by claiming that glued on stops are "just as hard as the wood itself" - surely if Mfr's had been aware of this they would have been doing it that way since whenever: think of all the heavy section material and machining they would have saved.

Now you answer my original question which you've so far ducked: "Who says that stuck stops are the security of the door"?

 

[Roger928]

You said that, of course, by claiming that glued on stops are "just as hard as the wood itself" - surely if Mfr's had been aware of this they would have been doing it that way since whenever: think of all the heavy section material and machining they would have saved.

Now you answer my original question which you've so far ducked: "Who says that stuck stops are the security of the door"?

If you were on site and the client gives you a bunch of laminates and a bucket of cascamite what would you do?
Tip it over his head? If I was on site with a jobsworth like you I'd probably tip it over your head. LoL.
Remember.. the customer is always right!

The stops are on the outside of an external door. When burgulars ransacked my home they bashed the door in.. not out!