External lighting off internal socket

[P6Jax]

Hi All

Working out the best way to get my external lighting circuit connected.

I have a single gang socket in the kitchen for the washing machine, under the worktop. This is unswitched at the socket, but instead there is a fused switch elsewhere on the wall. My current thought process is:

1/ Replace single gang socket with single->double gang socket. Only switched models are available, this shouldn't be a problem.

2/ Place an IP rated double switched socket with a integrated RCD on the outside of the house. Run 1.5mm flex (<1m run) from this, through the wall (to inside) to a plug, which plugs into the newly spare socket.

3/ Run a <0.5m length of outdoor / arctic flex with a plug on the end from a junction box next to the outdoor socket.

4/ From this junction box, SWA armoured cable and glands into the garden.

I know this isn't as 'clean' as it could be, but it allows a RCD protected outdoor power point with the reset function on the outside. The house has been rewired in recent years so the CU has a RCD in it, though I am uncertain which circuits are protected. If protection extends to the kitchen sockets, do I need seperate RCD protection?

The kitchen sockets have their own circuit on the CU. Only the smoke detectors and upstairs / downstairs lighting circuits sit to the right of the RCD, so I presume everything else is protected that sits to the left.

Thanks in advance

 

[17thman]

what an ugly mess.

 

[P6Jax]

Agreed, though I don't think there is anything unsafe from this arrangement -only potentially the unarmoured flex going from the junction box to the outdoor socket. Though this is no more unsafe than any spike type lighting with flex coming from the back.

Could you make some practical suggestions?

If there is no regulation against it, my immediate thought would be to take the armoured cable directly into the outdoor socket, if there is no requirement for additional RCD protection. This would leave one short piece of flex coming through the wall with just a single plug.

Comments or constructive criticism please.

 

[riveralt]

They do make un-switched double gang sockets you know.
http://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-13a-2-gang-unswitched-plug-socket-white/64861
Perhaps you should start with stating what you are trying to achieve, because you proposed installation is missing a large number of factors such as cable length, number of outside sockets etc.

If all you are attempting to do is to install an outside socket then run 2.5mm ² T&E through the rear of the single socket to the (RCD?) socket on the outside wall.
Thus extending the radial circuit one assumes has been created by the Fused connection unit (FCU). This will also allow you to isolate the outside socket(s) from the electricity thieves.

 

[RF Lighting]

What are the sockets for?

Is the isolator for the washer socket a fused connection unit, or just an isolator switch?

 

[P6Jax]

Thank you for the comments.

Riveralt: It was a double socket that only required a single gang backbox that I mentioned, so less disruption required, such as http://www.amazon.co.uk/electronics/dp/B004WGX6FE

This (currently) single gange unswitched socket is fed from a switched fused connection unit.

I am trying to achieve two things:

1/ outdoor lighting. To keep on topic, this is a 2.5mm (I know this is unneccesary given the power / distance) 3 core SWA run with a total of 9 lights, though potentially up to 50W each fitting wise, they are running 4W LED bulbs or 9W fluorescents. This run needs power and was planned to finish around where the socket was.

2/ at least one usable outdoor socket, to be used by a lawn mower at worst case.

The location of the interior socket on the outside wall would not be desirable.

So back to my original question:

1/ Is this within regulations and safe to take a plugged length <1m of flex, 1.5mm - 2.5mm to the outdoor double gang socket.

2/ Is there a requirement to have additional RCD protection to run it outdoors, if the circuit is already protected. (I would be curious to know why if required, as the one that trips will be the one with the lowest rating - so down to manufacturing tolerance if both 30mA)

3/ If no extra RCD protection is required, can I bring in and connect the lighting circuit in the back of this socket.

EDIT: Other suggestions, constructive criticism would be welcome!

 

[Iggifer]

the whole method is just rough. How about this

Cable through wall from internal socket to IP44 single socket.

Connect the SWA directly to this socket and just make the SWA run longer.

Takes away the need for a plug, bit of flex, junction box then SWA.

This is the way I would do it. I would also change the socket behind the washing machine for a proper, flush 2G socket. Digging out the wall from a 1G to a 2G really won't take that long, and you'll probably find you will need it to be flush for the WM to fit properly

 

[P6Jax]

the whole method is just rough. How about this

Cable through wall from internal socket to IP44 single socket.

Connect the SWA directly to this socket and just make the SWA run longer.

Takes away the need for a plug, bit of flex, junction box then SWA.

This is the way I would do it. I would also change the socket behind the washing machine for a proper, flush 2G socket. Digging out the wall from a 1G to a 2G really won't take that long, and you'll probably find you will need it to be flush for the WM to fit properly

Thanks for your comment

- The internal socket is not in an ideal place on the outside wall.
- I agree, taking the SWA directly into the socket would be best. But only if additional RCD protection isn't required (nobody has answered this yet).

 

[Iggifer]

visually, will look similar to the image of the first page of the brochure

http://www.mkelectric.com/Documents/English/EN MK Catalogue/Masterseal Plus Catalogue.pdf

Only replace the conduit with SWA in your head. You can even get them in black to match the SWA

K56486BLK - 1 Gang
K56482BLK - 2 Gang

 

[Iggifer]

If the kitchen socket is covered by the RCD (30mA) then you do not need further RCD protection, you could change the FCU to an RCD FCU if you wanted belts and braces, but not necessary (and they look gash)

Could you live with the socket where the internal one? Or is it totally unfeasible? If not, I would take the cable through the wall, into an IP adaptable box, 20mm black conduit to the socket and then SWA out from the socket to the lights.

This again, is much tidier than the plug / socket / JB plan

 

[P6Jax]

If the kitchen socket is covered by the RCD (30mA) then you do not need further RCD protection, you could change the FCU to an RCD FCU if you wanted belts and braces, but not necessary (and they look gash)

Could you live with the socket where the internal one? Or is it totally unfeasible? If not, I would take the cable through the wall, into an IP adaptable box, 20mm black conduit to the socket and then SWA out from the socket to the lights.

This again, is much tidier than the plug / socket / JB plan

For the sake of electrical neatness, your suggestion will probably be best. I'll put a IP rated double socket on the outside, directly behind the internal socket using 2.5mm T&E. I'll run PVC conduit with 1.5mm - 2.5mm flex to a outdoor lighting switch, at which point I'll go to the SWA. Thanks for the comments and suggestions.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You'll be able to terminate SWA in that switch?

And the lights are designed to take 2 SWA glands each?

 

[Iggifer]

one thing I forgot to mention was you will need to fuse down for the lights, so will need another FCU after the socket and before the lights

just replace the outdoor switch with an MK masterseal FCU, not as easy to use, but solves the problem

 

[P6Jax]

one thing I forgot to mention was you will need to fuse down for the lights, so will need another FCU after the socket and before the lights

just replace the outdoor switch with an MK masterseal FCU, not as easy to use, but solves the problem

Isn't this then a spur off a spur? Is this allowed?

 

[JohnW2]

one thing I forgot to mention was you will need to fuse down for the lights, so will need another FCU after the socket and before the lights ... just replace the outdoor switch with an MK masterseal FCU, not as easy to use, but solves the problem

Isn't this then a spur off a spur? Is this allowed?

Yes, it's allowed with a fused spur. It's only with unfused spurs that you can't have 'a spur of a spur'. You can connect anything you like (within reason!) to a fused spur, since the total current of everything connected will be limited to 13A (or less, if the fuse is smaller than 13A) by the first FCU.

Kind Regards, John