French doors that open fully back on themselves?

[harlingtonstraker]

Hi there, long time reader first time poster here

I'm looking to replace my patio door with french doors, and ideally would
like them to open outwards and right back against the outside wall each side, I'm having trouble finding a manufacturer that makes them like this.

All the ones I've seen only open to roughly 120 degrees, whereby they catch on the brickwork due to the door frame being fitted setback from the wall face.

Am I missing a trick here? Can the door frame be fitted flush with the wall? Or is there a special 'double' hinge that would work?


Thanks
harlingtonstraker

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Two tricks, possibly. To achieve a "fold back" the way you want the frame ideally needs to be flush or near flush with the wall, and even then you'll need Parliament hinges as well. The doors are frequently worked narrow to the opening (i.e. they have a largish gap between them of 1 to 2 inches) and rebated edgings are applied to the doors to finish the opening. These edgings are not quite square rebates, but are angled to allow the doors to be opened

 

[God]

or if your opening size allows it have side panels fitted and the main doors will the swing back 180 degrees

 

[harlingtonstraker]

I'd already looked at side panels but dont have the width, I thought if we can put a man on the moon ( allegedly! ) then there must be a clever hinge out there , just a case of knowing where to look . . . which I dont as yet . . .

thanks . . .

 

[Deleted member 174758]

just a case of knowing where to look . . . which I dont as yet . . .

So why you don't think that Parliament hinges are going to work, then?

 

[harlingtonstraker]

did i say they wouldnt work? your suggestion is welcome thanks, I didnt know what they were called, they look a very simple solution and I'm sure will work ok, but I was hoping to find something more subtle, rather than having a big bit of hinge sticking out, and is it really easy to just cut the hinge off at the pin and remove the door to break in?
I guess I dont really know what I'm looking for looks wise, just thought there would be a clever flush hinge out there that would be widely available?
I'm sure Ive seen the kind of thing I mean but I can remember where . . .



thanks . . .

 

[Deleted member 174758]

did i say they wouldnt work? your suggestion is welcome thanks, I didnt know what they were called, they look a very simple solution and I'm sure will work ok, but I was hoping to find something more subtle, rather than having a big bit of hinge sticking out, and is it really easy to just cut the hinge off at the pin and remove the door to break in?

You didn't say you needed subtle. If you had I might have suggested Soss hinges - but you'll need the almost very largest size (100mm or larger). They require extremely accurate installation with a 1/2in plunge router and jig because they are not forgiving of inaccurate installation (they cant' be installed with a brace and bit!). Soss hinges are very clever, but they aren't that widely available and I've no doubt that there are a lot of small ironmongers out there who've never ever sold one. Parliament hinges, on the other hand, are a traditional approach, fairly readily available and if you look around you'll see them all over the place, from town halls to banks. They were specifically designed to jack a door out from the frame by 2 to 2-1/2in (and larger offsets are available) which a concealed hinge like the Soss simply can't do. Hence my suggestion.

Parliament hinges I've installed are often thicker and of far better quality materials than the average domestic steel hinge often used on outward opening doors and are a lot more difficult to cut off, but you can always go for the security version of them with built-in hinge bolts or simply install separate hinge bolts (much cheaper). Perhaps as you are so security concious you already have some on the existing doors and will simply transfer them to the new installation....

I'm told that French windows are a housebreakers favourite because they are often fitted with inadequate locks (cheap 3-lever builders specials), no or inadequate draw bolts and if they fail to gain entry by forcing the lock or breaking the frame then the glazing is another easy entry point for the would-be thief. Easier than sawing off two or threee heavy duty hinges IMHO. The only sawn-off hinges I've ever dealt with were on unglazed doors like fire exits. As you are concerned about security you might want to consider installing a 3-way espagnolette lock with a couple of locking dead bolts on the other leaf as well as hinge bolts

 

[harlingtonstraker]

thanks for taking the time to reply so comprehensively

I'll have a closer look around at the available parliament hinges, will I have to specify these to the door supplier so they can allow for the extra swing at the lock as you mentioned in your first reply, or is this adjustment/modification done during installation?

I'm replacing a patio door and have no experience of french doors other than at my mums house

 

[Deleted member 174758]

will I have to specify these to the door supplier so they can allow for the extra swing at the lock as you mentioned in your first reply

Yes, although they might opt to supply the doors so that when swung they have a gap between them and supply a pair of plant-on rebated meeting stiles. An easier way might be to opt for a pair of doors pre-hung in a frame, especially as you appear to have limited joinery skills (from what you say). Paired doors like this are somewhat more difficult to get right than singletons

 

[danncus]

Here's what I did...

http://opposite-locksmith.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/french-window-door-hanging.html

 

[harlingtonstraker]

that looks pretty good, not as obtrusive as I expected,
did you have to chamfer the other edge to get by the lock, to allow for the extra 'swing' ?
thanks . . .

 

[Deleted member 174758]

So, back to Parliament hinges, then?

 

[harlingtonstraker]

maybe

I'm still waiting for a reply from nasa, they must of had some super hinges on the space shuttle I could use, since they're not using the shuttle anymore

 

[Deleted member 174758]

That's called living on the edge - drop a bit of polystyrene on them and whammo!

 

[danncus]

I have 1/2" rebated doors. No chamfer required.