How to get speaker wire to in ceiling kitchen speakers?

[hoagie007]

Hi all,

After much thought I have decided it's best to replace my Sonos Play 5 with a spare Connect:Amp and some in-ceiling speakers in the kitchen primarily for stereo sound and to avoid the power cable from the Play 5 to the socket.

I have attached two images showing the ground and first floor directly above it. My thought is to put the amp in the pantry under the stairs where there's power for the amp. There also looks to be a hole in the ceiling in the pantry where wires are fed and seem to appear under the floor boards at the top of the stairs.

On the first floor the hallway has floor boards running from top to bottom so I assume joists running from left to right? The bathroom has lino laid so I can get to the floor boards and I would like to avoid fitting a speaker below the back bedroom which will be used for baby number 2 when it arrives.

If I put the amp in the pantry how easy/hard is it to "fish" the speaker wire to the position I would like to put the speakers (blue circles) keeping in mind the joists etc?

Can the fact that I have a dozen or so spot lights help with fishing the wire? Can these be popped up so that I can get to the space above it?

It's a Victorian house with high ceilings and coving and I cannot tear down the ceiling. I thought about taking the floor boards up in the hallway but I would only be able to put speakers down which sit above cupboards and wouldn't look as good nor probably sound as good.

I have access to the attic. On the first floor you can see the dashed lines which indicate walls. Is it possible to drill down into the wall from the attic and pass wires down into the space between the ceiling and the floor? I can't imagine how I would then locate the wires to pull them towards the speaker holes.

Also, to apply with building regs I believe that a "hoody" is required to assist with keeping the integrity of the ceiling against the spread of fire. Although I'm sure many people don't do this I would prefer to do it by the book just in case we sell the house in the future....

Help would be truly appreciated!

View media item 62813 View media item 62814

 

[ChrisFrost]

The simple answer is to hire an electrician to do the job for you. They have the tools and experience to make a fairly quick and tidy job of it.

If you want to do this DIY then it will involve lifting floorboards and drilling joists at some point where the joists cross your intended path. Joists fill the space between the floor above and the ceiling below. So you won't be able to fish under or over them. The good news is that the floorboards run across the joists too, so you won't have to lift too many to get to where you want.

Bare in mind that running speaker cables next to power cables is just asking for trouble with buzzing audio. So as tempting as it might be to take the easy road and run your wires through the holes already in the joists for the ceiling lights, it's a false economy if you have to then go back and rip them out again to do the job right as it should have been in the first place.

Also, skipping on ceiling hoods is a really bad idea. You don't need statistics to tell you what common sense should already have flagged up. Somewhere with heat sources, cooking fats, electrical appliances left running at night or 24/7, water and electrics together etc is a prime source for house fires.

We know that smoke kills more than fire, and I don't want to sound all doom and gloom; but just think beyond the money for a second. God forbid something should happen, but how would you feel if your insurers refused part of your claim because a lack of fire hoods contributed to the faster spread of fire and more damage. Let's not even consider the death of a child.

 

[hoagie007]

Thanks for the tips. I had planned to fit a hoody for the speakers but I guess you mean a fire hood for the lights? I actually have an electrician coming over next week to complete some work that he said needed doing after an inspection of the electrics (just bought the house). I'll ask him as he said that he needs to put a box or something round them as the wires are exposed. That maybe what you are talking about?

I wanted to get an idea of what was needed in advance of him coming over. I have made him aware of the speakers and I think he may use the time to plan the work that is required.

I'll buy the speakers and speaker cable for next week in case he's able to make a start. I want the bathroom done afterwards but that's easier due to the loft access.

Thanks for the advice, I wanted a bit more background as to what would be involved and the electrician is the right man for the job.

 

[ChrisFrost]

As far as I'm concerned fire hoods for the speakers is a given. It's a no brainer whenever there's a space above where people move about. So rooms below bedrooms, halls, bathrooms, playrooms, home offices etc etc all need fire hoods on speakers.

What to do with light fittings depends a lot on the type of fitting already installed. Good commercial designs have fire retardant intumescent material built in.

If the ceiling fitting are old (240V halogens, compact fluorescents, screw-in spots etc) then rather than adding hoods to old units it might be far more cost effective to replace the entire unit with a new LED fitting. Scolmore Inceptors are bright LEDs that are a straight swap for 80mm diameter 240V halogen fittings. The cutout size range is 61~71mm diameter. They're available as both dimmable and non-dimmable versions. The dimming version will work with most basic wall dimming switches designed for an inductive load. The lights will slash your electric bill and they don't generate much heat either. The non-dimmable versions are available from £27 ea and the 'lamp' in each will last about 80,000 hours. This is more than the cost of a hood. But factor in lower energy bills, no replacement lamps, less excess heat and the fact that they'll look cool as well then they could be a better long term bet.

As for speakers. Don't waste your money on anything really cheap. When the grill is on then they all look pretty much the same. But it's true that you get what you pay for.

Go for a recognised audio brand or specialist installation brand rather than some vague Chinese "unknown". A 5.5" woofer with a separate tweeter should suffice. (Budget up to £250/pr) A 6.5" woofer will sound richer but cost more. (Budget over £300/pr).

Silk dome or metal dome tweeters show that the speaker is a serious music tool rather than simply token background music. Also look at the efficiency. Good speakers worth buying are rated at least 88~89dB. Something at 85~86dB needs twice the amp power in watts to sound as loud, so efficiency is really quite important. Ohms is important too. 8 Ohm means an easy life for your amp. Anything less than 6 Ohm and you're amp will be working a bit harder because the speaker design is a more difficult load. If there's no spec listed then chances are the company is embarrassed and you should move on.

 

[hoagie007]

As far as I'm concerned fire hoods for the speakers is a given. It's a no brainer whenever there's a space above where people move about. So rooms below bedrooms, halls, bathrooms, playrooms, home offices etc etc all need fire hoods on speakers.

What to do with light fittings depends a lot on the type of fitting already installed. Good commercial designs have fire retardant intumescent material built in.

If the ceiling fitting are old (240V halogens, compact fluorescents, screw-in spots etc) then rather than adding hoods to old units it might be far more cost effective to replace the entire unit with a new LED fitting. Scolmore Inceptors are bright LEDs that are a straight swap for 80mm diameter 240V halogen fittings. The cutout size range is 61~71mm diameter. They're available as both dimmable and non-dimmable versions. The dimming version will work with most basic wall dimming switches designed for an inductive load. The lights will slash your electric bill and they don't generate much heat either. The non-dimmable versions are available from £27 ea and the 'lamp' in each will last about 80,000 hours. This is more than the cost of a hood. But factor in lower energy bills, no replacement lamps, less excess heat and the fact that they'll look cool as well then they could be a better long term bet.

As for speakers. Don't waste your money on anything really cheap. When the grill is on then they all look pretty much the same. But it's true that you get what you pay for.

Go for a recognised audio brand or specialist installation brand rather than some vague Chinese "unknown". A 5.5" woofer with a separate tweeter should suffice. (Budget up to £250/pr) A 6.5" woofer will sound richer but cost more. (Budget over £300/pr).

Silk dome or metal dome tweeters show that the speaker is a serious music tool rather than simply token background music. Also look at the efficiency. Good speakers worth buying are rated at least 88~89dB. Something at 85~86dB needs twice the amp power in watts to sound as loud, so efficiency is really quite important. Ohms is important too. 8 Ohm means an easy life for your amp. Anything less than 6 Ohm and you're amp will be working a bit harder because the speaker design is a more difficult load. If there's no spec listed then chances are the company is embarrassed and you should move on.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the idea about the LEDs. The electrician is a fan and mentioned aurora and a retrofit option. Not clued up on lights so will call him tomorrow. With 18 lights in the kitchen I need to make sure the cost can be recouped in two years...

With regards to the speakers I have been reading about and have decided to go for these http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk/support/past-products/cp/cpc-gs/#/overview

They have a closed back which means I can avoid needing to build a box (if required) and they should help with negating sound rising above as I think they will need to sit under the babies room. I will also purchase two hoodies and have them fitted at the same time.

Now onto tracking down some speaker wire.....

 

[ChrisFrost]

Monitor Audio make good speakers, and if you've set your heart on them then that's what you should buy. But if you're open to a suggestion then I can improve on the performance and offer you a product that will be easier to install, with a longer warranty (5yrs vs 3) and that will save you a large chunk of change that you can throw towards your lighting.

 

[hoagie007]

Monitor Audio make good speakers, and if you've set your heart on them then that's what you should buy. But if you're open to a suggestion then I can improve on the performance and offer you a product that will be easier to install, with a longer warranty (5yrs vs 3) and that will save you a large chunk of change that you can throw towards your lighting.

Well I have kind of changed my mind (over night) on the closed back speakers which costs more and look at open backed speakers which offer more choice and lower cost. I was going to buy a fire hood which will offer some sound cancellation and look to fill the hood with a material that will assist the cancellation and hopefully better bass.

What ideas do you have?

 

[ChrisFrost]

I was going to suggest open backed + soft hoods which is what you're already considering. Great minds!! lol. Part of the reason is that the joist spaces carry pipes and cables, and they always seem to be in the least convenient position. An open backed speaker is a shallower fit (avg 4" vs 7") and using a soft hood means being able to work around the stuff you find taking up space only after cutting a dirty great hole in your ceiling.

The rest of the details involve you gaining some benefit from what I do for a living. Scroll down through my photo stream and you'll see some pictures of me and my assistant installing some open-backed ceiling speakers. The hoods are already in place in the ceiling.

If you are still interested then we should exchange details via messaging.

 

[Sam Gangee]

Bare in mind that...

Hee hee. Bear in mind that I'm only "bare" on top.