I'd like to know what's what

[GeminianDragon]

We would like the end of our garden to have a outhouse/workshop. I am a little confused if we are allowed to build it without building permission or not.

Q1) Would we need building permission to build a standard 2.5 metres high bricked rectangle at the bottom of our garden?

We would prefer brick instead of buying a shed, for warmth in the colder months when we are outside/in the workshop creating our hobbies. It will not be used for domestic purposes; such as a guest bedroom although we may look into having a toilet and a sink.

Q2) Would we need building permission if we were to add a toilet and a sink?

Q3) What if it was already built without a toilet and a sink - and then we decided to add a toilet and a sink? Technically we would have built the workshop without building permission and they could frown upon that?

~ Thanks

 

[ban-all-sheds]

"Building Permission".

Do you mean Planning Permission or Building Regulations approval?

 

[GeminianDragon]

"Building Permission".

Do you mean Planning Permission or Building Regulations approval?

Building Regulations approval.

My understanding of it is, I wouldn't need Planning Permission because the building is not going to be used for domestic use. Unless I have got it wrong?

 

[rjm2k]

Yes that's wrong, you may or may not need planning permission, that all depends on your property rights. If you have permitted development rights and you stick within the PD rules then no PP is needed. Not sure about the Building Regs for the loo/sink though, if it's required then it's required whether or not you need PP.

See Outbuildings below...

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/outbuildings/


You could just go ahead anyway and hope nobody complains.

 

[geraldthehamster]

Q1) Would we need building permission to build a standard 3ft high bricked rectangle at the bottom of our garden?

3ft high? This is some kind of gnome shelter?

Cheers
Richard

 

[tony1851]

And what is a 'bricked rectangle'?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

the building is not going to be used for domestic use.

Yes it is:

workshop [for] our hobbies.

 

[SimonH2]

I think the extra loo and sink will be notifiable (building regs) - both because you are adding extra water using appliances, and because you will (I assume) be installing underground pipework for them. But AIUI planning permission wouldn't be needed.
But as suggested, you could just crack on and see if anyone notices !

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You could just go ahead anyway and hope nobody complains.

Bad idea.

But as suggested, you could just crack on and see if anyone notices !

They will notice when the house is sold, at which point the lack of a completion certificate could well cost a lot more than the few '00 it would have cost to do it properly in the first place.

 

[SimonH2]

They will notice when the house is sold

You think ? I disagree.
<some years> down the line it goes for sale, solicitor gives you one of those forms that asks loads of silly questions - I think we've more or less agreed that the one about electrics since 2005 is getting worthless. You truthfully answer that you've build the garden "shed" and show them papers relating to planning and building control. I think it's very very very very unlikely that anyone will give them more than a second glance - "yes there's paperwork for that building", ie the solicitor will see that you have stated that you added a building, yes you had planning permission, yes you have a completion certificate for it, all boxes ticked.

You didn't install the loo and sink at the same time, the paperwork won't show that. But no-one has lied - the form asked if there had been any building work, you tell them that you built this shed with services in it. The only time it becomes a lie to not mention the loo and sink is if you didn't do it at more or less the same time in which case to remain honest you would need to declare it separately - at which point the paper trail isn't there.

But if you say that "in 2014 we added the garden shed", and in 2014 you put the loo in it, then there's been no lie - they asked a question and you answered it. Word your BC notification carefully "construction of garden building with relevant services" and it'll be impossible to tell. It'll need electrics and surface drainage, so "relevant services" and you'll have a completion certificate for it.

And of course, once the first sale has gone through, much of the paperwork is likely to have been lost anyway.

If you think that sort of thing doesn't go on all the time, without being detected, then I think you are a little naive.

 

[GeminianDragon]

Thank you for your replies.

Q1) Would we need building permission to build a standard 3ft high bricked rectangle at the bottom of our garden?

3ft high? This is some kind of gnome shelter?

Cheers
Richard

Ha, I meant 3 metres... (Must of had a lot of numbers and measurements in my head that day) ...You were the only one to notice that!

Although the workshop will only be allowed 2.5 metres in height, which I have learned from that PlanningPortal.gov.uk website; therefore I have corrected my first post from 3ft to 2.5 metres.

~

the building is not going to be used for domestic use.

Yes it is:

workshop [for] our hobbies.

I do not know a single person who does woodwork (unless it's carving) or metal work in their living room, bedroom or kitchen (any domestic room in their house unless it's attached such as a cellar, garage, workshop) due to machinery and the debris that they produce.

Because our hobbies have Health and Safety issues; machinery, shards, dust and fumes, I would not and do not think that out hobbies are classed as suitable for "domestic" use.

There would be no radiators or any sort of integrated heating in the workshop, except for a portable electric heater. Of course there would be lights and electric plug sockets. But the floor is not going to be laminated and the walls are not going to be painted magnolia, it is just going to be a very dull, concrete... "hut" if you like.

~

I have contacted several architects in the area that are coming this week to have a look and discuss. I'll keep this post updated what I have been advised for any future reference to those who are Googling and stumbling upon this post.

The reason why we would like to add a toilet and sink later on is because we could rent out the workshop to groups of people in the evenings; people interested in teaching their woodwork skill(s) for example, and I would prefer if they didn't have to use the main house toilet for obvious reasons.

I am hoping without any delusion that we can build it without any sort of permission and then add a toilet and sink later on with permission; although that seems very backwards as they could ask us to demolish the workshop/existing building if they inspected it on the application to add plumbing and did not approve of it, although the workshop would be sticking to guidelines like:

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/commonprojects/outbuildings/

We could add the some of the plumbing work (and hide it), but do not add a physical toilet or sink until we have received the full permission. This would be the cheapest and safest option as we would want to install some of the plumbing work while we are building, instead of causing problems later when installing properly if the permission was granted. It would be at an extra cost to install a full plumbing system in the garden and if it did not get accepted, would be an obvious waste of money.

~ Thanks

 

[rjm2k]

rent out the workshop to groups of people in the evenings;

That would probably need change of use PP to commercial use, it also opens up all sorts of H&S requirements.

 

[GeminianDragon]

rent out the workshop to groups of people in the evenings;

That would probably need change of use PP to commercial use, it also opens up all sorts of H&S requirements.

because we could rent out the workshop to groups of people in the evenings;

You forgot an important word, could.

Instead of complicating the building project further, we could build the workshop and then we could in the future, go down the road of looking at possibly commercialising the workshop, depending on Health and Safety.

 

[SimonH2]

I do not know a single person who does woodwork (unless it's carving) or metal work in their living room, bedroom or kitchen ...

That's not what he said. In planning terms this would be considered part of the domestic property, and it's use would be considered as part of your domestic use of the property.

Whatever you do, don't even hint to the planners that you have even thought of any "non domestic" use for it - whether that's by running a business or renting it out. Only ever talk about it's domestic use for your hobbies (and those of immediate family).

When it's been up a while, then you might get away with a small business element to your hobby without complaints*. For full business use you'd need planning permission which may or may not be given - but they can't stop you continuing with domestic use.

* That's the case with a friend. In his garage he has some grit blasting kit, primarily for own use - but he has taken in a few paying jobs over the years. One of the neighbours is the "any excuse to complain" type and complained to the council - they sent someone round, he basically said "no problem, just don't go too late into the evenings with the noise" as he recognised that the business element was really just incidental to the hobby side of things.

 

[rjm2k]

he basically said "no problem, just don't go too late into the evenings with the noise" as he recognised that the business element was really just incidental to the hobby side of things.

Which bit of the council were they from Planning or Environmental Health? They were VERY understanding, almost to an unheard of level if they were planning!