In or out

[Shutpa]

I would not want to be associated with that group

The reason why you would not want to be associated with that post

It's you and yours, namely those of like mind, that I don't want to be associated with F & I!!! As for the post, who in their right mind, apart from yourself and your cronies, would associate themselves with it? And that is my last word on this.

 

[PBC_1966]

A result for the Brexit-ers will mean the older, less educated voters have destined the younger, better educated to a life not of their own choosing.

Better educated in what sense?

Read the link. I've reproduced the quote for you

What I was suggesting is that despite perhaps not having so many pieces of paper showing academic qualifications, in general older people tend to have much more education in the sense of practical experience. Many college and university graduates have known nothing but their cloistered world of academia, and these days while they might do well in their chosen subject they often seem to have a surprising lack of knowledge about the world in general.

You consider a university education to be a form of brain-washing?

Not per se, but British colleges and universities have been known for their pervading political leanings for years.

You're suggesting that the lower educated are better placed to make a rational judgement than the more educated?

Again, I'm saying that education is not just about getting a degree in economics or some such thing and the EU issue involves far more than just trading and whether the U.K. would be financially better off in and out. As you've said about things, it's more complex than that.

 

[Himaginn]

What I was suggesting is that despite perhaps not having so many pieces of paper showing academic qualifications, in general older people tend to have much more education in the sense of practical experience. Many college and university graduates have known nothing but their cloistered world of academia, and these days while they might do well in their chosen subject they often seem to have a surprising lack of knowledge about the world in general.

The link clearly refers to University graduates. That doesn't mean students who are still at Uni. It includes those that have left Uni with a degree and are 'out in the world'.

You consider a university education to be a form of brain-washing?

Not per se, but British colleges and universities have been known for their pervading political leanings for years.

A lot less so than the schooling of yesteryear.
But as said, it refers to Uni graduates who have probably been out of Uni for some time, perhaps as many as more than 10 years. It also includes part-time Uni graduates who have graduated later while working, those with professional degrees, etc.

You're suggesting that the lower educated are better placed to make a rational judgement than the more educated?

Again, I'm saying that education is not just about getting a degree in economics or some such thing and the EU issue involves far more than just trading and whether the U.K. would be financially better off in and out. As you've said about things, it's more complex than that.

Yes. It is more complex and the better education helps to make more sense of more complex issues, assists in identifying decisions based purely on beliefs and values, in identifying the real issues involved, and to be able to identify fallacious or misleading arguments.

 

[PBC_1966]

The statement reproduced from the advisory website about EU VAT clearly indicated that VAT must be paid prior to removal from customs, for goods imported from outside EU. This does not apply to goods imported within EU, which can be considered for a suspensive arrangement.

So, logically, the importer pays the VAT, at the rate of the receiving country, prior to removal from customs, for goods imported from outside EU.
Now the importer is out of pocket until the goods are sold on.

No, he will reclaim the VAT paid on his next VAT return, whether he's already sold the goods on or not, so he might be out of pocket to that amount for up to about 3 months. But during that time, he will also be collecting VAT on his sales which is to be passed on to Customs & Excise on that next return, so he will have the benefit of that money to balance it out.

To further illustrate the example, suppose Brico Depot (a DIY shed operating in EU) import tools from UK (following a Brexit), they would have to pay VAT prior to removal from customs, but they couldn't reclaim that VAT until goods are sold to the end user, perhaps many months, even years, later.

You don't seem to understand how the system works, so I have to ask if you've ever been VAT registered for business?

Take a case where you're running a business and not importing, just buying from another U.K. business. You buy a widget from your wholesaler for £100 and you pay him £100 + 20% VAT. You put that £20 down in your VAT accounts as being tax you can reclaim on your next VAT return. Now you sell that widget to somebody else for £150, and add 20% VAT for a total of £180. You put the £30 VAT you collected from your buyer in your accounts as being due to H. M. Govt. Net result as far as this one widget is concerned - You now owe H.M. Govt. £10.
It doesn't matter whether it takes you a week or a year to sell the widget; as soon as you've bought it and paid out the VAT on that purchase, you can reclaim the £20 VAT you paid on your next return. When you sell it, you are liable to collect the £30 VAT on the sale price and will declare that for payment to H.M. Govt. in whatever happens to be your next VAT return following the sale. That may or may not be the same return as the purchase of the widget.

The person to whom you sold the widget repeats the process in the same way, reclaiming the VAT he paid you, and passing on the VAT he charged to his buyer. The net tax collected at each step along the chain is based on the value which has been added to the item, hence Value Added Tax. As far as a VAT-registered business is concerned, it never actually has to pay VAT on the widgets it sells, because any VAT paid for their purchase is reclaimed. It's only when the chain reaches somebody who is not VAT registered - be that the end domestic consumer or a small, non-VAT registered business - that the process or paying and reclaiming VAT stops.

Now if you decide to bypass your U.K. wholesaler and import (from outside the EU) directly, the only thing that changes on those arriving shipments is that instead of paying VAT to your British wholesaler from him to pass it on to H. M. Govt., you get charged directly on the arriving goods. You can still reclaim the VAT paid on your next VAT return, just as if you'd purchased from a U.K. business.

 

[Himaginn]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, PBC, but it still means that you could be out-of-pocket for the VAT on imported goods, (as you say, until the next VAT return) and that out-of-pocket situation is perpetuated, which has a cost implication.

 

[PBC_1966]

You're right, VAT was implemented, in the UK, on joining the EU. It wasn't implemented in Albania, Andorra, Azerbaijan, Argentina, Armenia, Australia on condition of them joining EU. And that is just the countries beginning with'A'. I won't bother to list rest of the countries. I'd be here too long, and you get the idea.

I really don't see what point you're trying to make then. So some other countries decided to implement VAT-like sales tax systems (although to what extent each may differ, I have no idea), but that in no way alters the fact, which you've acknowledged, that it was adopted in the U.K. as a condition of joining the (then) EEC.

You obviously have no idea of what you are talking about: {.....}

You then go on to quote the VAT rules as they stand at present. Of course the current VAT rules will not reflect changes which might be made in the future. That's the whole point: At present the U.K. (along with Ireland) enjoys that "super reduced rate" of zero percent on food and a few other items, but I was talking about the EU wanting to prevent that and force VAT on food.

. And you can bet that it won't be too long before the EU dictates that VAT rates should be "harmonized" across all countries. They've been working toward that for years.

Another blatant fallacy:

And again, you go on to quote the current rules. I was talking about possible future rules. Yes, at the moment the EU says "only" that the standard rate in each country shall be a minimum of 15%. That's already part way toward "harmonization" of the whole system across the entire EU. That doesn't mean that at some point in the future the EU won't dictate that the standard rate in all countries will be fixed at 22% or whatever figure it comes up with.

 

[Himaginn]

You're right, VAT was implemented, in the UK, on joining the EU. It wasn't implemented in Albania, Andorra, Azerbaijan, Argentina, Armenia, Australia on condition of them joining EU. And that is just the countries beginning with'A'. I won't bother to list rest of the countries. I'd be here too long, and you get the idea.

I really don't see what point you're trying to make then. So some other countries decided to implement VAT-like sales tax systems (although to what extent each may differ, I have no idea), but that in no way alters the fact, which you've acknowledged, that it was adopted in the U.K. as a condition of joining the (then) EEC.

VAT compared to Purchase Tax is a good little earner and I don't suppose the UK were too upset about implementing it. I guess they jumped at the opportunity without much complaint.

You obviously have no idea of what you are talking about: {.....}

You then go on to quote the VAT rules as they stand at present. Of course the current VAT rules will not reflect changes which might be made in the future. That's the whole point: At present the U.K. (along with Ireland) enjoys that "super reduced rate" of zero percent on food and a few other items, but I was talking about the EU wanting to prevent that and force VAT on food.

In which case, why haven't they already implemented their enforcement of VAT on food?
If the UK is out of the EU, they'll be doing so quite earnestly, we can suppose. Then we'll see French, Belgians, Spanish, etc on food cruises to UK.

. And you can bet that it won't be too long before the EU dictates that VAT rates should be "harmonized" across all countries. They've been working toward that for years.

Another blatant fallacy:

And again, you go on to quote the current rules. I was talking about possible future rules. Yes, at the moment the EU says "only" that the standard rate in each country shall be a minimum of 15%. That's already part way toward "harmonization" of the whole system across the entire EU. That doesn't mean that at some point in the future the EU won't dictate that the standard rate in all countries will be fixed at 22% or whatever figure it comes up with.

Well the sky might fall in tomorrow, but I'm not going to let it influence whether I get out of bed in the morning.

 

[PBC_1966]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, PBC, but it still means that you could be out-of-pocket for the VAT on imported goods, (as you say, until the next VAT return) and that out-of-pocket situation is perpetuated, which has a cost implication.

But that same situation exists when you buy from a business within your own country anyway, since you pay your supplier the VAT and then have to wait until the next VAT return (anything up to 3 months) to reclaim it.

As I said earlier, perhaps this specific rule has changed since I was VAT-registered in Britain some years ago, but at that time you could actually avoid having to pay VAT on imports anyway. It was on a small scale, but I was receiving packages of equipment from the U.S. quite regularly, and all I had to do was make sure that the sender provided my VAT registration number on the documentation, then Customs simply did not charge VAT in the first place, so there was nothing to reclaim (there might have still been duty to pay, but that's a different tax).

 

[ajstoneservices]

A business can apply to make monthly returns.

 

[PBC_1966]

In which case, why haven't they already implemented their enforcement of VAT on food?

Why haven't they done many things yet? I think because as power-hungry as they are, they realize that sometimes things have to be done stealthily and slowly.

The ultimate aim of the EU with regard to VAT has always been that eventually it will be the same rules in every country. In fact that's the ultimate aim of the EU with regard to everything, not just VAT and tax in general.

 

[PBC_1966]

A business can apply to make monthly returns.

Good point, I'd forgotten about that. For those businesses which are consistently reclaiming VAT each period the monthly return may well be beneficial. But for those businesses (the majority) which consistently owe VAT each period, the "out of pocket" payment of VAT on purchases which has to be reclaimed is generally offset by the VAT which is being collected on sales during that same period anyway, since they have the use of that money from collection until the next return.

 

[Fire and Ice]

I would not want to be associated with that group

The reason why you would not want to be associated with that post

It's you and yours, namely those of like mind, that I don't want to be associated with F & I!!! As for the post, who in their right mind, apart from yourself and your cronies, would associate themselves with it? And that is my last word on this.

So which group is that?

 

[Shutpa]

So which group is that?

The one I refer to in the following quote Einstein!!

The truth is that in my pre- reappearance thread read............there were, in my opinion, certain members who were "using any or no excuse" to change the direction of any given thread towards their pet prejudice. And it just so happens that some of the 'Out' contributors to this thread are those who, again in my opinion, were doing just that. I did not want to be associated in any shape or form with such members and for that reason did not contribute to the 'Out' argument.

Himaggin, if you read F & I's reply, you will see what I meant by "mediocre opposition". Back to the grind tomorrow- I wonder if this thread will still be running, die a natural death, or be locked in my absence?

 

[fender]

And in my opinion, there are "certain" members who use "any or no excuse" whatsoever to push their agenda that anyone who dares to disagree with them, or "dares" to criticize immigrants, refugees, Muslims, or Islam as racist bigots. You are held in equal contempt.

 

[Fire and Ice]

The truth is that in my pre- reappearance thread read............there were, in my opinion, certain members who were "using any or no excuse" to change the direction of any given thread towards their pet prejudice. And it just so happens that some of the 'Out' contributors to this thread are those who, again in my opinion, were doing just that. I did not want to be associated in any shape or form with such members and for that reason did not contribute to the 'Out' argument.

Oh, just like you did in the New Year resolution thread when the guy was trying to steer the topic on to things like Vans, biscuits,and the like...