Is it time to ban cigarettes/tobacco?

[AronSearle]

Answer the question Aaron (he won't).

What question?

I guess you would want to see heroin and crack cocaine, crystal meth and the like freely available?

(I post a link showing decriminsiation leads to lower use, so obviously would like it legal)

If not - then why not. Will you tell me? (he won't). icon_mrgreen.gif

Why would I defend the "If not why not" when I DO want to see it legalized.



It's hard to argue with someone who doesnt even know their own argument.

 

[peaps]

No we don't go again because if you would care to read the article you will see that productivity isn't factored into the equation, it was mentioned at the very last para of the article.

From your article, Smoking costs NHS over £5 billion a year.

Revenue generated £9 billion.

So...?

the issue is that people who have the full facts in front of them carry on smoking when it causes a massive cost on our NHS due to health problems that are "self inflicted"

As above.

They pay more than they cost, 9 is higher than 5.

The issue isn't that people are or become unproductive

And yet someone in this very thread posted a link (cancer research) counting smoking related deaths as lost productivity.

You even seem to think that it costs more than it get's taxed, yet youre own figures don't show this, and the only figures that point to this include lost productivity.

hmmm?

The real cost is not money it's lives, the lives of the smoker who drains the NHS of needed cash that could goto saving children etc Money could be better spent if only....

Could be better spend if only....

What part of the numbers don't you get, they pay 9 billion in tax, it costs the NHS 5 billion (or 2.7 billion according to the NHS itself)

That's 9 billion that the NHS wouldnt have if not for smokers.

So how many children can you save with the change from 5 or 2.7 depending.

Hmmmm?

You have a balance but you ignore the facts. So you assume everyone treated on the NHS for smoke related illness are of pention age?

Ermm that's kind of the point.

They won't be drawing a pension.

They won't be costing the NHS in as much old age care.

You can't even get the expenditure correct....

"This table shows estimates of consumer expenditure on UK Duty Paid (UKDP) tobacco products. Please note that although the Office for National Statistics also produce estimates of consumer spending on tobacco products they include estimates of spending on smuggled tobacco products (although not on crossborder purchases). Their estimate for 2007 is £16.6 billion, suggesting spending on smuggled tobacco products was around £4 billion."
http://www.the-tma.org.uk/tma-publications-research/facts-figures/consumer-expenditure/

Lives=priceless, my point.....

Tax is not as simple as you make out is it..? We also haven't counted health related problems due to say second hand smoke, still born due to smoking etc etc But I do note that you put a very low price on life.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctpa15/Econ7008_slides6.pdf

How much does it cost to collect and police boarders, or is this not part of the equation...?

Not as thick as you assume hey?

 

[joe-90]

Answer the question Aaron (he won't).

What question?

I guess you would want to see heroin and crack cocaine, crystal meth and the like freely available?

(I post a link showing decriminsiation leads to lower use, so obviously would like it legal)

If not - then why not. Will you tell me? (he won't). icon_mrgreen.gif

Why would I defend the "If not why not" when I DO want to see it legalized.



It's hard to argue with someone who doesnt even know their own argument.

So you want heroin and crystal meth legalising then?

 

[peaps]

"Whilst tax on tobacco contributes £10 billion annually to the Treasury coffers, the true costs to society from smoking are far higher, at £13.74 billion, think thank Policy Exchange’s latest report finds. This cost is made up of the cost of treating smokers on the NHS (£2.7 billion) but also the loss in productivity from smoking breaks (£2.9 billion) and increased absenteeism (£2.5 billion); the cost of cleaning up cigarette butts (£342 million); the cost of fires (£507 million), and also the loss in economic output from the deaths of smokers (£4.1 billion) and passive smokers (£713 million)."

http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/pr...needs-to-rise-to-reflect-this-says-think-tank

So of sinks your boat..?

 

[Norcon]

And the druggies want drugs legalised which the government would tax and fall well short of paying for the damage caused just like fags.

 

[libby lou lou]

And the druggies want drugs legalised which the government would tax and fall well short of paying for the damage caused just like fags.

Cheaper to have all drugs legal and free, think of the savings on crime and imprisonment.

 

[Norcon]

And the druggies want drugs legalised which the government would tax and fall well short of paying for the damage caused just like fags.

Cheaper to have all drugs legal and free, think of the savings on crime and imprisonment.

I just read this and it blows holes in your argument...
http://www.caselaw4cops.net/articles/legalizing_drugs.html

 

[AronSearle]

"Whilst tax on tobacco contributes £10 billion annually to the Treasury coffers, the true costs to society from smoking are far higher, at £13.74 billion, think thank Policy Exchange’s latest report finds. This cost is made up of the cost of treating smokers on the NHS (£2.7 billion) but also the loss in productivity from smoking breaks (£2.9 billion) and increased absenteeism (£2.5 billion); the cost of cleaning up cigarette butts (£342 million); the cost of fires (£507 million), and also the loss in economic output from the deaths of smokers (£4.1 billion) and passive smokers (£713 million)."

http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/pr...needs-to-rise-to-reflect-this-says-think-tank

So of sinks your boat..?

The issue isn't that people are or become unproductive

And yet again, you post the same that was posted on the previous page, that shows smokers only cost more than they pay, if you include loss in productivity, yet again comparing people to cattle.

After you spend a page denying that's the case.

Round and round we go



You can't show any evidence that smokers cost state services more than they pay in tax, YOUR OWN LINKS prove this.

Now of course I expect you to make cheap jibes about how I think life is cheap (oh wait.... you did that) and that no price is to high to prevent smoking related deaths.

Just ignore that massive growing black market driven by excessively high prices, ignore that the black market sees "deadlier" counterfeited fags used, and criminal organisations created.

Ignore that a vast majority of smoking related illness is self inflicted (personal choice).

 

[joe-90]

Aaron.

So you want heroin and crystal meth legalising then?

 

[AronSearle]

And the druggies want drugs legalised which the government would tax and fall well short of paying for the damage caused just like fags.

Cheaper to have all drugs legal and free, think of the savings on crime and imprisonment.

I just read this and it blows holes in your argument...
http://www.caselaw4cops.net/articles/legalizing_drugs.html[/QUOTE]

1. caselaw4cops oh yea, that's not biased

2. it's an opinion piece.

3. what about Portugal, why did they see a fall in users and user deaths?



4

The police have not lost the drug war

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V--tz3IMCY4

 

[peaps]

"Whilst tax on tobacco contributes £10 billion annually to the Treasury coffers, the true costs to society from smoking are far higher, at £13.74 billion, think thank Policy Exchange’s latest report finds. This cost is made up of the cost of treating smokers on the NHS (£2.7 billion) but also the loss in productivity from smoking breaks (£2.9 billion) and increased absenteeism (£2.5 billion); the cost of cleaning up cigarette butts (£342 million); the cost of fires (£507 million), and also the loss in economic output from the deaths of smokers (£4.1 billion) and passive smokers (£713 million)."

http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/pr...needs-to-rise-to-reflect-this-says-think-tank

So of sinks your boat..?

The issue isn't that people are or become unproductive

And yet again, you post the same that was posted on the previous page, that shows smokers only cost more than they pay, if you include loss in productivity, yet again comparing people to cattle.

After you spend a page denying that's the case.

Round and round we go



You can't show any evidence that smokers cost state services more than they pay in tax, YOUR OWN LINKS prove this.

Now of course I expect you to make cheap jibes about how I think life is cheap (oh wait.... you did that) and that no price is to high to prevent smoking related deaths.

Just ignore that massive growing black market driven by excessively high prices, ignore that the black market sees "deadlier" counterfeited fags used, and criminal organisations created.

Ignore that a vast majority of smoking related illness is self inflicted (personal choice).

"The issue isn't that people are or become unproductive, the issue is that people who have the full facts in front of them carry on smoking when it causes a massive cost on our NHS due to health problems that are "self inflicted" we are not talking about children running around falling over here."

Do the full quote..

Will return after I have fed the animals.

 

[AronSearle]

Aaron.

So you want heroin and crystal meth legalising then?

I want whatever leads to lower drug abuse and drug deaths.



Or would you prefer to make me answer "yes", so you can accuse me of wanting kids to snort cocaine.

Surely you wouldn't use such a cheap argumentative trick?

 

[AronSearle]

"The issue isn't that people are or become unproductive, the issue is that people who have the full facts in front of them carry on smoking when it causes a massive cost on our NHS due to health problems that are "self inflicted" we are not talking about children running around falling over here."

What difference does the full quote make?

You just want to keep insisting that they "cost the NHS massive amounts", and you just want to keep ignoring the fact that they pay this money back "and some" through tobacco tax.


It's like me taking £10 from your wallet and replacing it with £20, then running around saying I cost you £10.

 

[Norcon]

2. it's an opinion piece.

No different than yours then.
Or should yours be "opinionated"?

 

[EddieM]

well i can drop the number of road deaths to near zero. just drop the speed limit to 5 mph. anything above is pure recklessness.

guess what folks, life is risky, always ends in death.