Is My Masterplug RCD Safe? Please Help!

[JonathanP]

Hello,
I have just joined this forum as everyone here seems very knowledgeable. I have practically 0 electrical experience when it actually comes down to things like this, so I don't know many technical terms or anything. I just want to know if it's safe to continue using my RCD Adapter.

I use my Masterplug RCD adapter with my Hammond organ. I've had one break due to, I think, a power surge. My fuse box has RCDs, which did all trip, but unfortunately it was too late. That's why I thought I'd get an RCD adapter to use with my one I have now.

It was working fine for the couple of months or so I've had it, until this evening. I just finished playing my organ, and as normal, I went to press the test button on the RCD to turn the indicator black before powering the whole switch off from the mains. It didn't want to go black. So I pressed it again and that time it did go black, so I turned the switch off. I thought I'd better test it. I've tested it with many electrical devices and many sockets and this always happens:

1. Press the reset button - the indicator turns orange for 'on'.
2. Press the test button - the indicator turns black for 'off'.
All normal so far, until:
3. Press the reset button again to turn the indicator orange - the indicator only goes very faint orange when I hold it down. Upon releasing the reset button, it goes back to black. It won't ever go orange again after step 2. The button also refuses to click like it usually does. Furthermore, at this stage, as it's staying black, no appliance receives power through it.

I can only get the indicator to stay orange when I switch the whole socket off and then on again and then repeat just step 1. At this point, I also get power through it. I'm using it like this with my laptop now as I write and my battery says it's charging at the moment.

My very huge concern is is this safe to use? It does seem able to reset to black if I were to press the test button, so I just do step 1 and 2, then turn the socket off, then just step 1 again. This means the previous time it did reset, so it was working then. But I don't know if it's safe to use. Obviously something could happen in between testing it all that time and then turning it on for the second time. I'll leave it to the professionals, just please tell me if this is safe or if I should take it back?

Regards,
Jonathan.

 

[riveralt]

If your circuit is already protected by an RCD why do you feel the need for an additional RCD?

 

[JonathanP]

While not 100% necessary, you have to understand that these are old electrical devices, mine is from 1967. It has no internal fuses in any of the components (apart from the plug, which has been replaced with a newer one than it's original condensed mud counterpart), old capacitors (a mixture of newer "red" Mylar caps and the old paper-wax caps in my case) and they're very sensitive to any changes in frequency and even the slightest power surge. My house is extremely susceptible to surges and power cuts. My fuse box is only about 1 year old, but living right out in rural Norfolk the electricity supply is rubbish to say the least. I can't remember the amount of power cuts I've had in the year I've been here. The added protection is a comfort to me, it definitely can't do any harm! Just out of interest, would this RCD adapter pick up on something before my fuse box or not?

Either way, same question still needs to be answered, is this thing safe to use or not?

 

[RF Lighting]

Sounds like it's gone faulty.

It also sounds like your trying to use an earth fault device for surge protection, which it does NOT do.

 

[flameport]

The test button on RCDs does very little, the only real way would be to test the device with the relevant testing equipment. It may be that the defect is with the test button itself.
However as it is not operating as intended, it should be replaced.

A plug in RCD won't provide any additional safety - the only exceptionally rare instance in which it might be of value is if the RCD in the consumer unit totally failed.
In the event of a fault, there is no way to know which of the two devices would trip first. Could be either, or both.

The main problem with Hammond organs from that period is internal components or wiring failing and causing a fire, which an RCD will do little or nothing to prevent. When the capacitors in the power supply fail, they generally explode and billow vast amounts of toxic smoke into the room.

 

[Robin0577]

If it's protection from fluctuating mains voltage you're after, then as RF says, an RCD will be no help at all, and having two of the will make no difference.

What you want is a ferroresonant constant voltage transformer to run your organ from, not cheap but I imagine you'l only need a smallish one, probably a couple of hundred VA would do.

 

[JonathanP]

The test button on RCDs does very little, the only real way would be to test the device with the relevant testing equipment. It may be that the defect is with the test button itself.
However as it is not operating as intended, it should be replaced.

A plug in RCD won't provide any additional safety - the only exceptionally rare instance in which it might be of value is if the RCD in the consumer unit totally failed.
In the event of a fault, there is no way to know which of the two devices would trip first. Could be either, or both.

The main problem with Hammond organs from that period is internal components or wiring failing and causing a fire, which an RCD will do little or nothing to prevent. When the capacitors in the power supply fail, they generally explode and billow vast amounts of toxic smoke into the room.

Maybe a bit of an over exaggerated account of what can happen with old Hammond organs. Never have I heard of an organ, or anything inside it, exploding. Sure, they can go "bang", but that's usually just something inside failing and the whole organ powering off with a pop sound from the speakers. Sometimes a component may get fried, but that's usually with the later ones, there isn't really anything to fry with tubes, capacitors and tonewheels. They definitely can smoke though, but nothing toxic will come out of them. It's more common with the US power supply though, due to RCDs they don't tend to smoke here. And when the capacitors fail, they don't explode. The organ either won't power on, some features won't work or some tones will sound off pitch. Just had to clear that up They're pretty safe as old electronics go really! All thanks to over-engineering, something you just don't see any more.

Getting back to the RCD, it's always good to have a second RCD as a safety net in case for whatever reason the fuse box RCD fails. Something like my computer, I wouldn't care if that got fried, but if anything happened to the organ I'd be distraught! I'll make sure to get a second RCD when it's convenient, but would it be an idea to use one of these RCD adapters with a surge protected extension extension plugged into that, with the organ plugged into that extension?

 

[bernardgreen]

I agree with flameport that an additional RCD will do nothing to protect the organ from surges or other conditions on the mains supply.

When the capacitors in the power supply fail, they generally explode and billow vast amounts of toxic smoke into the room.

There is a lot to be said for replacing old capacitors before they "pop off". Some purists will say that modern components alter the sound. Possibly there is some very minor effect in the audio circuitry when capacitors in those circuits are changed. But changing the capacitors in the power supply will have no effect on the tonal quality. ( some ultra purists will say it does ) but it will reduce the chances of the power supply "popping its farads"

 

[JonathanP]

I agree with flameport that an additional RCD will do nothing to protect the organ from surges or other conditions on the mains supply.

When the capacitors in the power supply fail, they generally explode and billow vast amounts of toxic smoke into the room.

There is a lot to be said for replacing old capacitors before they "pop off". Some purists will say that modern components alter the sound. Possibly there is some very minor effect in the audio circuitry when capacitors in those circuits are changed. But changing the capacitors in the power supply will have no effect on the tonal quality. ( some ultra purists will say it does ) but it will reduce the chances of the power supply "popping its farads"

In that case I think I may just forget the RCD and instead plug the organ into a good surge protected extension cable. Those transformers look good, but they're very expensive! And I mean expensive!

Only on the tonewheel generator can caps alter the sound. The red caps sound brighter than the paper-wax caps. Power supply makes no difference, but mine is fine as it is. I personally work off the principle of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". You can definitely tell when caps cause trouble and in Hammonds they definitely don't violently explode. A problem in the power supply would either mean really low volume or it just doesn't turn on. Let's put it this way, replacing caps is a weird thing to do for fun and can end up being worse than before! So until absolutely necessary, there's no need to change any. Now in radios and TVs which aren't quite so over-engineered, that's a different story, we all know that they explode!

 

[JohnW2]

I personally work off the principle of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". You can definitely tell when caps cause trouble and in Hammonds they definitely don't violently explode. A problem in the power supply would either mean really low volume or it just doesn't turn on.

That's wishful thinking. Old power supply capacitors can, and sometimes do, explode - no matter what sort of equipment they are in. Believe me, I've seen it a good few times.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ebee]

I think your plug in RCD adaptor has had its day and advise changing it.

You could just rely on the Consumer Unit RCD and you should be OK.
I said "should" because RCDs do possibly have a high failure rate of 7%.

In theory at least (if not in practice) two RCDs might reduce that failure rate to 0.49%

Research suggests that correctly functioning RCDs may be expected to save 95% of the population - this means that 5% will not be saved!

I would not place reliance on RCDs they are back up protection only
(In a TT system you`ve usually not much choice other than to rely upon them).

As said RCDs are not for surge protection, only for earth faults and only under the right circumstances.

The are not a cure all but they are a very good idea to have one or two.
Two in cascade is probably better than one from a purely electrical safety position although not always from a discrimination viewpoint.

 

[riveralt]

You could just rely on the Consumer Unit RCD and you should be OK.
I said "should" because RCDs do possibly have a high failure rate of 7%.

Rubbish you show me your evidence and I will show you mine - I do hope you are not relying on the 'Italian job'?

In theory at least (if not in practice) two RCDs might reduce that failure rate to 0.49%

More rubbish and bad maths at that.

Research suggests that correctly functioning RCDs may be expected to save 95% of the population - this means that 5% will not be saved!

Using your logic then before RCDs 100% would not be saved.

I would not place reliance on RCDs they are back up protection only
(In a TT system you`ve usually not much choice other than to rely upon them).

Nor for new installations either and it is called additional protection. Goodness me you shouldn't get up so early, since your not at your best.

The are not a cure all but they are a very good idea to have one or two.
Two in cascade is probably better than one from a purely electrical safety position although not always from a discrimination viewpoint.

That doesn't make sense - does this mean I should install three just to be sure?

So from ebee's world viewpoint, when you complete an installation you ensure that every RCD has a back up then and your customers are okay with this?
Is this what you have in your house?
How have you done that - a RCD adapter in every used socket?

 

[JonathanP]

Just to clarify, I've never heard of a Hammond organ exploding in my life, so I'll take a 'gamble' and suggest I won't be the first. Either way, the power cable has been replaced which involves taking the power amplifier out. It was replaced by a qualified engineer a few years ago, so anything alarming would've also been sorted out then I'm sure. Furthermore, I've had another engineer go over the whole organ just a month ago, so I can tell you everything is fine.

My concern isn't anything at all to do with the functionality or safety of my organ. Only recently something caused everything in my house to trip, not the 46 year old organ, but the few months old kettle! My concern is to do with the bloody electrics in this place, which despite my house's fuse box being replaced, unfortunately there's nothing I can do about the out of date Victorian infrastructure past that. We have very frequent power cuts and the extra RCD just makes me feel safer in case for some odd reason, my fuse box doesn't work. Anything fragile, a backup is never a bad idea and really I'm shocked at people being ridiculed for trying to be "safe rather than sorry". If it was that practice which everyone had, then RCDs would never be around in the first place!!

I'll look into some protection for surges. My setup will probably be something like an RCD plug in adapter connected to a surge protected extension cable with the organ plugged into that. Most people just plug Hammonds straight in with no protection, as really they don't need any. But I hate the electronics around here and definitely don't trust them one little bit, so absolutely anything protective that I can put in my house I will.

 

[viewer]

Question if you don't mind. How much power does an organ like yours need?
How long would you play at one time? It may be nonsense, depending upon your answers, but I wonder if a charger - battery - inverter would give you the surge protection at reasonable cost.

 

[riveralt]

My concern isn't anything at all to do with the functionality or safety of my organ. Only recently something caused everything in my house to trip, not the 46 year old organ, but the few months old kettle!

If 'everything' tripped in your house because of the kettle then your problem is with your current electrical set up. If your new Consumer Unit is only a year old then you should at the very least have two RCD's protecting your circuits - so only half of 'everything' should have tripped.
The only way 'everything' could have tripped is if your CU main switch blew - you would know about that - your main fuse blew - you would know if that happened or your electrician left the old 100ms RCD in place.

We have very frequent power cuts and the extra RCD just makes me feel safer in case for some odd reason, my fuse box doesn't work. Anything fragile, a backup is never a bad idea

Yes but you don't seem to understand the purpose of the RCD is to protect you and not your fragile equipment.

and really I'm shocked at people being ridiculed for trying to be "safe rather than sorry". If it was that practice which everyone had, then RCDs would never be around in the first place!!

The need for two RCD's in line and some very bad maths is being ridiculed not the very wise move of having Additional Protection in the form of an RCD.

I'll look into some protection for surges. My setup will probably be something like an RCD plug in adapter connected to a surge protected extension cable with the organ plugged into that. Most people just plug Hammonds straight in with no protection, as really they don't need any. But I hate the electronics around here and definitely don't trust them one little bit, so absolutely anything protective that I can put in my house I will.

The second RCD is not the solution to your problem.
If you are truly get power surges then it is the responsibility of the DNO to sort this out - They have to provide power within a certain range otherwise they become responsible for the damage that is caused.