Permitted Development, Side Extension, Original House?

[MikeM99]

Hi all,

Just after some advice/clarification on 'original house' where a part of the original side wall extending beyond the rear of the main house was taken down and replaced at some point after 1948.

Specifically, we have 1930's house where the original 1928 overview plans (no dimensions), and the current council planning website (Trafford) show a small addition on the kitchen at the rear extending the side wall. Looking at other unmodified houses in the street this looks like it's approx 6x6ft single storey.

At some point in the past 20 or so years, it looks like this has been demolished and completely replaced by a 'proper' 8x8ft double brick extension, meaning everything beyond the rear wall or the main house is now not original. The council's planning website shows no permissions applied for or plans for this.

We're now looking at building a side extension under PD. From what I understand, we can go back as far as the rear of original house, or as it stood in 1948. What I'm unclear about is whether we can go back to where the original rear wall of this original addition stood, or because this has been demolished and replaced, we can only go back to the rear wall of the main house.

Thanks in advance.

 

[cjard]

If the new wall was built on the footprint of the wall that stood in 1948, then it can be considered that it was the wall that was standing in 1948. One doesn't lose PD rights to extend backwards just because a section of the rear wall was rebuilt

 

[MikeM99]

It extends the original foot print by an extra 2 ft rearwards, but obviously the side wall is built over where the original side wall stood - it's just 2 ft longer at 8ft rather than 6ft.

So this suggests then that I can come back past the house by 6ft to where the original addition ended.

 

[MikeM99]

Would I need to be able to prove where this original addition ended and the dimensions of it to the council if there were any issues raised?

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

You use the footprint as it stood in 1948. You may have to demonstrate to the planners what the original footprint was in 1948. Do you intend getting a Certificate of Lawful Development? Are you saying the map you have looked at online is the councils Interactive Map or is it a Ye Oldie historic map? Because at large scale an 8’x8’ extension will look pretty similar to the original 6’x6’existing bit.

 

[MikeM99]

We're planning on staying in the house and not selling it Freddy - would I still need a certificate?

The map online is the council's interactive map, I've also got copies of original deeds/plans from 1928 and also a copy of the site plan from Land Registry. These all show the same footprint, but one of these show actual dimensions. There are a few houses in the street that look like they have the original addition still in place (brick matches orignal house), so I could take dimensions from them to prove to anyone the original dimensions if needed.

I was just wondering if the council use the same plans that I've found then they don't know the dimensions either do they?

I've just spoken to someone in the planning department who seems to think I can go back to the rear of the original addition, but suggested I email in for clarification...

 

[tony1851]

Assume you are in a semi, as sketch?

If the dotted line represents the original extension built with the house, is the outline of the enlarged extension showing correctly?

If that's the case, you can extend the side of the house (to not more than one-half the width of the house) but only as far back as the line marked 'Y'.

The reason is that if you go back any further, your new side extension would be physically linked to the later kitchen extension. For the purposes of p.d., the new side extension and the later kitchen extension would be regarded as one unit.

Viewed from the back of the house, the combined width would then be greater than half the width of the house, therefore it would not be p.d.

Untitled

• tony1851
• 3 Sep 2014
• 1

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Ignoring the proof of this or that for the moment, what would be really helpful, is if you do three sketches, they don’t have to look as good as tony’s, one showing the house as you think it was originally built, one showing as it is today and one showing what you want to do, all with some basic dimensions.

 

[MikeM99]

Hi Tony,

Yes layout is as per your diagram. So we can only come back as far as the Y line? I was hoping we could come back as far as the rear of the original lean to - is this not regarded as the rear of the original house then as that's the footprint as of 1948?

So if I can only come back to the 'y' line, and considering the end game is to get back as far as possible to the rear of the later extension, would I build back to 'y' and then apply for permission to extend further backwards to the rear of 'later extension'?

Cheers

 

[MikeM99]

Freddy, this is the current plan view from the land registry.

Untitled

• MikeM99
• 3 Sep 2014
• 1

Blue line is how it looks now,

Green is ideal extension extents, we could live with coming back to the purple line as we'd only lose a couple of feet. If we can only go to the yellow line, could we then apply for planning later to extend this rearwards to the green line.

Hope this is clear [/img]

Cheers

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Yes you can do that, you can extend up to 3m beyond the original rear wall (to the side only though). (Or 6m under the Neighbour Consultation scheme). In fact your sketch is demonstrated in the Technical Guidance here page 17: http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/100806_PDforhouseholders_TechnicalGuidance.pdf

 

[MikeM99]

Thanks Freddy, but doesn't the blue line mean I already have a rear extension? Which would mean that the side extension, if extended beyond the rear wall would be attached to the rear wall (black line is 1948 footprint as far as I can tell) as per first diagram on page 23 ?

I think overall width at widest point then would > 50% width of original house.

So is the consensus that I can come back to the yellow or purple line? Or is the best approach to get the complete green extension to just come back to the yellow line and then get permission to come back to green/blue line?

Cheers

 

[tony1851]

is the best approach to get the complete green extension to just come back to the yellow line and then get permission to come back to green/blue line?

Cheers

Yes, your best approach is to build the side extension first, and then apply for p.p. to complete the rear part.

In this particular case, it would be better not to apply for p.p. for the whole lot. The reason is that in Trafford, planning policy requires two off-street parking places per dwelling. Looking at the site plan in your case, you won't get two places without setting the front of the side extension back a good few feet.

But if you build the side extension first under p.d., - and up to the front - they can't later refuse a planning application for the rear part.

 

[MikeM99]

Thanks Tony - I'll take that approach then.

It probably doesn't look like it from the drawing but we can fit 3 cars on the front driveway. The gap down the side of the house is about 2m wide and we've never been able to get a car down there really.

Thanks everyone for the advice.

Cheers
Mike