Residential purposes

[mart6]

What exactly contributes Residential purposes
could a building without bath/shower toilet be classed as being used for residential purposes for enforcement purposes ?

TIA

 

[^woody^]

Enforcement by who?

 

[mart6]

Enforcement by who?

LPA - COUNCIL

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

You will have to expand on the situation if you want any useful response.

 

[^woody^]

You could use your local bus station for "residential purposes" but it wont be a residential building.

It's all about context

 

[mart6]

You will have to expand on the situation if you want any useful response.

Thought it would not be so simple lol.
Here are the enforcement contitions
All sounds a bit vague to me
1 . Cease using stable block for residential use
2 . Cease using stable block as kenneling.
3 . Remove all beds,bedding and furniture associated with residential use from the stable block and remove from the land.
4 .Remove metel kenneling cages from the stable block and remove from the land.
5 .Remove all rubish, waste and non agricultral/equestianmaterial from the land.

Where to start approx 2 years ago i purchased a stable block of 2 stables and a store room brick built along with adjoining 6 acres.
pal grazed a couple of horses temp and i had a herd of pedigree goats i intend to turn into a bis.
All went well for a year then we had a break in £5000 worth of machinery stolen, gates chains cut animals let out.Then goats altacked by stray dogs.
Final straw i arrived one day and locks were cut and tarmac tipper and caravan was on site.
So i started stopping odd night as security put dogs in pens i use to treat goats/ kids ect.
Cut to chase planning arrived one day said i need planning residential use and kennels.Despite a agreement if only used as security they turned down retrospective planning.
I am trying to aquire additional land to make it 5 hectres
council are trying eveything to stop me establishing bisuness here
and are intent on stopping it the store room is used for heating milk steralising equipment for kids feed ect .
Makes enforcement conditions vague imo

 

[^woody^]

You probably should get some professional local help from a planning consultant.

But to answer the question, it has not got anything to do with having a bath, shower or toilet as to whether something is residential or not.

There is case law which described residential as being for a permanent residence - ie a home where someone lives permanently ... as opposed to say a holiday home.

So if the council say you are using it for "residential use" then they are saying that you are living there permanently as your main home. Whether you are or not only you can answer, but if you are not, then the council's claim fails.

Unless there is an express condition on any existing planning permission for the stable, preventing anyone from temporarily sleeping there, then sleeping there a few nights does not contravene planning law, and is not "residing" there.

For kennelling , again there is clear definitions of what this entails. A dog's kennel could well be ancillary use, and thus permitted. Several kennels and other facilities for dogs may not be.

Planners can not make anyone remove beds or bedding, or furniture. They have no authority for this. Likewise for the equipment.

Waste, well thats subjective as to what waste is. If your dumping skips of building rubble on land for stables, then that's a planning contravention. If its some pallets from horses hay, then that's not.

 

[mart6]

Thanks Woody

It is not my permanent residence, i live elsewhere and have bills ect as proof
council tax ect.
There is no bed its a soffa with a quilt and pillows.
A sink unit is fitted been there 10 years, kitchen like cuboards used for storage kettle and cooker hob for boiling water at kidding time fidge /freezer for storing drugs and frozen milk for kids. Small table with laptop for
records and DEFRA stuff.
Do not get how they can say residential furniture.
There is no rubbish about at all dont know what they are trying there.
What they call kennels i use for goats at kidding time. Were empty at time so instead of leaving dogs in car i used pens.
Seems to be a weak enforcement notice to me.
As my understanding is i can have a temporary caravan on site for employees for seasonal work kidding ect ?
May be i should make bis ltd co and i can be employee.
They have refused to give me a address for bis and do not reply to calls or emails .
I had a 3 year battle with Tesco when they tried to help themselves to my land at a different property, everyone said negotiate i refused i won in the end so i am not adverse to a slog

 

[mart6]

Just been in touch with previous owners they used store room for eating cooking,had table chairs and a soffa in there for 8 years prior to my 2 years
Depends a lot on how they define residential now?
Residential is 4 years use to be lawfull?
Change of use is 10 years ?

 

[^woody^]

To prove residential use, then you would normally need to provide evidence of bills, deliveries etc to demonstrate that it was used as a home. And then a smart council will pursue you for unpaid council tax.

 

[mart6]

To prove residential use, then you would normally need to provide evidence of bills, deliveries etc to demonstrate that it was used as a home. And then a smart council will pursue you for unpaid council tax.

Bit that gets me is insistance i remove so called residential items, previous owner left those here anyway.
Just rang four different council planning departments and none could define what would be classed as residential all said its a grey area lol.

I asked if i had a store room attached to stables would i be allowed a cooker ,table,chairs,soffa , cook and eat onsite ect.
Three said yes as long as horses were on site. But if there were no animals it would be deffinate no.
Other said he needed to look into each individual case.
All said if horse was ill or foaling you would be able to be on site and sleep.

 

[SimonH2]

IANAL ...

I'd be tempted to write back, state that the property is not being used for residential uses, but only for lawful agricultural use plus incidental activities (eg it's not unreasonable to have facilities to eat, drink, relax while "at work").

That ask them to state explicitly in writing what activities they consider to be residential use, and which are being carried on there.

The first puts the ball in their court - since you don't agree that residential use is going on, they have to prove it. The second puts it in their court to say just what they are objecting to - makes it harder to be vague.

If they come back with something equally vague, then write back and say so. Don't let them be vague - vague is what they thrive on as it means they can "adjust" what they mean as needs arise. If they still persist, then tell them their complaint is vexatious, and you will be making an official complaint about their harassment.

 

[mart6]

IANAL ...

I'd be tempted to write back, state that the property is not being used for residential uses, but only for lawful agricultural use plus incidental activities (eg it's not unreasonable to have facilities to eat, drink, relax while "at work").

That ask them to state explicitly in writing what activities they consider to be residential use, and which are being carried on there.

The first puts the ball in their court - since you don't agree that residential use is going on, they have to prove it. The second puts it in their court to say just what they are objecting to - makes it harder to be vague.

If they come back with something equally vague, then write back and say so. Don't let them be vague - vague is what they thrive on as it means they can "adjust" what they mean as needs arise. If they still persist, then tell them their complaint is vexatious, and you will be making an official complaint about their harassment.

I have already phoned 30 times noone is ever at desk you leave a message they do not ring back, wrote 12 letters , emailed 10 times asking that and other questions no reply at all.
Best bit is they wont give you the planning departments email address , you have to send email to customers services they then forward it for you and send you a confirmation its been forwarded to them ...lol
Doll went out window when i said i recorded the meeting that never happened.
I am looking forward to appealing the enforcement notice if i need to
You could not make this stuff up

 

[^woody^]

Here are the enforcement contitions

I've just noticed this,

Does this mean that a notice has been served? If so then it should state further details in terms of what they think is contravening planning policy.

You should then have something to go on to appeal the notice.

From the information here, I can't see how they can support their claim that residential use is established by way of a bed and bedding. Nor the other things as previously mentioned. Your use is more likely incidental use which would be permitted

 

[mart6]

Yes enforcement notice has been served via post and in person
Hang on i will post them up
There is not a bed in place its a soffa it was a quilt ,my mother pops over and shes 74 years old its hers she uses it to keep warm as i am often here for hours.