Sockets in my new extension

[delboybully]

I am having a new single story extension built. To keep costs down i am doing as much myself as i can. The building inspector is happy for me to do the wiring myself as long as he can see the cable runs before i cover them up and that i have an electrician test the system. He will also be installing a new consumer unit. I have an electrician to do this. The building inspector is also happy to have the sockets heights the same as in the rest of the house

I am having 7 double sockets and an external double socket. I am going to have these sockets on a ring. I want to be able to switch the external socket on/off my inside the extension. The consumer unit is in the dining room (approx 12ft from the extension). The wires will run up above the consumer unit to the ceiling, through the joists and out into the extension. the extension will have a vaulted ceiling, so these cables will come into extension and then up into the ceiling joists where they will run round until they drop down to each socket and then back up to the joist and then along to the next socket.

Where a cable runs through a joist does it have to go throught the middle or is there a different requirement. What do i use to switch the outside socket on/off. Cables will be running up from the socket to the ceiling inside conduit

Is there any other information i should know?

 

[flameport]

You have already asked this question, and received multiple answers to it:
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=248344

Asking again won't change the answer.

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

Mmm... I think this is a question about drilling joists. The thing is that the joists (if that's what they're called in this case) which support the vaulted ceiling must not be drilled at all. The rules about drilling joists refer to proper floor load bearing joists. Of course I might have misunderstood your question.

 

[delboybully]

The building inspector says he wants to see the cable runs. I know they have to be up and down but how do they run through the roof trusses -the main supports for the roof (the wood the plasterboard is screwed to- i have a vaulted ceiling). If i cant drill these trusses then how do i run the mains cable from one socket to another.

Also what do i use to switch the outside socket on and off (from inside).

Flameport, i am asking some questions on the sockets. In the other post i had too many questions and didnt really get an answer to many except, get an electrician. All i want is some advice on how to wire this extension. If you dont want to help me then please dont post.

 

[Taylortwocities]

If i cant drill these trusses then how do i run the mains cable from one socket to another.

In a safe zone. Refer to one of the books that BAs recommended to you.

Also what do i use to switch the outside socket on and off (from inside).

Err, a switch, perhaps.

Will you be connecting the external socket to a radial or a ring final circuit? What is the CPD for that circuit?

 

[delboybully]

I dont have any of those books. the last 'free' one wanted £17 odd

I am going to connect the sockets on a ring circuit. What does CPD stand for and what does it mean

Where is a safe zone. I am going to have to cross the trusses somewhere

What type of switch?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Is there any other information i should know?

Lots.

Please refer to the other topic for references to areas of competence and for a list of online and print information from which you can begin to acquire competence.

If i cant drill these trusses then how do i run the mains cable from one socket to another.

By finding a compliant route which does not damage the structural integrity of the trusses.

Once you've learned what you need to know about electrical regulations and structural matters to be able to competently and safely do what you've decided you will do then you'll be able to answer your own question.

Also what do i use to switch the outside socket on and off (from inside).

As TTC said, a switch.

And in response to your follow-up question, one which is suitably rated for the load it will be controlling. And of course which is suitable for the environment where it will be installed and which is installed in accordance with the applicable regulations.

Flameport, i am asking some questions on the sockets. In the other post i had too many questions and didnt really get an answer to many except, get an electrician.

There's a very good reason for that. Didn't the number of people who told you that signify anything to you?

Basically you are not competent to do the work yourself and you will not be able to acquire the necessary competence just by asking questions here.

All i want is some advice on how to wire this extension.

No - what you want is for people here to do all the things for you which you must be able to do yourself if you want to do this work but which you are currently too ignorant and incompetent to actually be able to do.

If you dont want to help me then please dont post.

I do hope that doesn't actually mean something like "I have no grasp of the complexity and depth of the task I have set myself and I refuse to listen to anyone who tries to tell me about that so please do not give me any answers which do not support my decision to proceed with work I do not understand or which involve me having to put some effort into gaining an understanding myself."

I dont have any of those books. the last 'free' one wanted £17 odd

Then buy them - lack of books sorted. Do it today and you'll have them by the weekend and can start to get stuck in.

What does CPD stand for and what does it mean

Circuit Protective Device, as in

Do you know how you would you go about deciding what cable and protective device to use for a circuit to supply a given load?

Where is a safe zone.

Dear God. You can't even be *rsed to read the free information in the Wiki, can you.

As I explained in the other topic, and as it seems you either cannot or will not accept, doing this wiring job is far from trivial, and requires you to know far more than you think it does.

And I mean KNOW, not just have answers to on the basis of questions you think to ask.

You can't do this by asking about whichever odd bits you think you should ask about, and you can't do it by following instructions to buy thing A and insert wires X and Y into holes 1 and 2.

You have to have a good, sound, fundamental, genuine UNDERSTANDING of what you are doing. You won't get that with your current approach and it is not the job of this forum to take on the responsibility for making design and installation decisions for you.

If you want to do this work then you are going to have to spend money and time (yes, you may have to put the building work on hold for some months) acquiring the knowledge of how to do it, not just getting a load of "how do I" questions answered.


If you cannot or will not do that, and if, as you have implied, you cannot afford to pay for an electrician to do it for you then you cannot have this extension. It's as simple as that, and the sooner you wake up to the reality of the situation and stop sleepwalking through your delusion that you will be able to DIY it with your current competence if you just ask a few questions the sooner you will avoid failure.

 

[riveralt]

I am having a new single story extension built. To keep costs down i am doing as much myself as i can. The building inspector is happy for me to do the wiring myself as long as he can see the cable runs before i cover them up and that i have an electrician test the system?

As you have mentioned Building Control then I will take it that you are/have gone through the planning process and the electricial installation work is being picked up as part of this process.

Delboybully: Have you had a look at the Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC)? Page one has three specific sections on design, construction and inspection and testing - each of which needs to be signed off by someone.

Who is designing the installation?
Who is constructing the installation? - You!
Who is inspecting and testing the installation?

As the Building Inspector is happy for you to do the wiring is he taking responsibility for the Desgin stage? I think not.
So is it you?
If it is you, have you shown him the design specs, cable runs, cable sizes, etc together with wiring diagrams.

I cannot believe the BCO would allow you to continue without that information if he does then I would guess he is breaking the law.

If the electrician is going to inspect and test the circuits and sign that part of the work off - meeting Part P and BS7671 - then he too will want to see the cable runs before they are covered up.

If you are dealing with BC then why are you asking questions here about the installation that you should have asked BC?

 

[delboybully]

It is apparent you all dont want me to do this job. You give me general answers. When i ask is there any thing else to know you basicially suggest i become an electrician.

All i wanted was some answers to questions. I understand to actually get this extension wired would of required many many questions (and pictures) and a lot of time from you all but it is clear this isnt going to happen.

For your information, I have a physics degree and i have a full understanding of electricty and how it works what i needed was the practical information of how to install to current regulations

I shall have to do some research to find out the correct way to do this

 

[1john]

You dont want help, you want a miricle, you are unwilling to help yourself!

You CANT drill rafters, you will struggle to install a compliant ring final circuit in a kitchen with all of the insulation required in a loft space over the cables. What size cable have you calculated that you will require?? did they teach you about thermal effects, grouping factors and such when doing a physics degree? ?If you decide to put the wrong size cable in and dont calculate it properly it will get hot / catch fire!!!!!

Researching information is as dangerous as thinking you know all the questions you need to ask, how do you know the information you have found is to date, correct, or not a very cleverly worded pish take??

There is a Wiki at the top of the main electrics page, read it for some of your answers and some things you didn't know you needed to know. A physics degree is all well and good but it has nothing to do with designing, constructing, inspecting and testing an electrical installation, is as far, far from being specific enough. Also you have lied in a previous thread about having an electrician to connect everything up and do the testing, this clearly isn't true as he would want to he designing this installation and seeing it through every stage if he is going to be signing his life away to your work!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It is apparent you all dont want me to do this job.

Not true.

Actually what we don't want is for you to do this job with your current level of competence.

You give me general answers. When i ask is there any thing else to know you basicially suggest i become an electrician.

No - we point out all the things you need to know.

As I recently told someone else, the laws of physics do not somehow become suspended because you're a DIYer. Voltage drop, cable de-rating factors, fault loop impedances and so on apply to the work you do in exactly the same way they do to that of a professional electrician.

The law requiring you to do safe work applies to you just as much as it does to a professional electrician, so if, as is the only realistic way, you work to BS 7671 to ensure safety then the Wiring Regulations apply to you in exactly the same way they do to a professional electrician.

If you think that you need to know less than an electrician, and can work to lower standards than an electrician you are very very wrong.

If you were physically doing the building work yourself would you think that it would be OK for the structural integrity of the extension to be lower because you were DIYing? That you could skimp on the foundations? Not build walls properly? Use undersized timbers in floors and roof, improperly installed?

All i wanted was some answers to questions. I understand to actually get this extension wired would of required many many questions (and pictures) and a lot of time from you all but it is clear this isnt going to happen.

Asking questions here can be a useful part of a learning process, but they are not a substitute for proper structured studying. The key term there is "learning process" - you cannot learn all the things you need to know just by asking questions here. It isn't structured enough - it won't provide you with a way to progress where each step builds on what you learned before.

You can't carry out a job of this magnitude by asking whatever random questions happen to occur to you. You've already shown that you have some dodgy misconceptions - what if you get something wrong because you have no idea your knowledge is wrong? What if you miss something because you simply have no idea it even exists, and just don't realise you don't know it?

Now you may not like that, but it is the truth.

It may be a very inconvenient truth for you, but truth it remains.

For your information, I have a physics degree and i have a full understanding of electricty and how it works what i needed was the practical information of how to install to current regulations

The regulations consist of 350 A4 pages. How realistic do you think it really is for people to tell you what they say, including anticipating your unknown unknowns?

I shall have to do some research to find out the correct way to do this

• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:books
  
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/electricity.html
  
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/domesticinstallations.html
  
  
• http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/1.1.htm[/list]I suggest you get stuck into the last link right away - it won't give you design ideas, and unfortunately it doesn't refer to the current edition of the Wiring Regulations, but it's free, and will still give you a good grounding which you can augment with more up to date publications.

 

[delboybully]

You dont want help, you want a miricle, you are unwilling to help yourself!

You CANT drill rafters, you will struggle to install a compliant ring final circuit in a kitchen with all of the insulation required in a loft space over the cables. What size cable have you calculated that you will require?? did they teach you about thermal effects, grouping factors and such when doing a physics degree? ?If you decide to put the wrong size cable in and dont calculate it properly it will get hot / catch fire!!!!!

Researching information is as dangerous as thinking you know all the questions you need to ask, how do you know the information you have found is to date, correct, or not a very cleverly worded pish take??

There is a Wiki at the top of the main electrics page, read it for some of your answers and some things you didn't know you needed to know. A physics degree is all well and good but it has nothing to do with designing, constructing, inspecting and testing an electrical installation, is as far, far from being specific enough. Also you have lied in a previous thread about having an electrician to connect everything up and do the testing, this clearly isn't true as he would want to he designing this installation and seeing it through every stage if he is going to be signing his life away to your work!

My extension is a living area not a kitchen

Also i didnt lie, i do have a electrician. I was planning on using him to test the system i had installed and install a new consumer unit. I was then told in the other thread that i couldnt do the work myself unless under his supervision. Building control told me different and that it is ok for me to do it and for him to test the system.

This is what i am going to do once i have found out the correct way to install the electrics. I shall look for this information elsewhere as i am not going to find it here.

 

[delboybully]

At least i have found out that you cant drill rafters so my post on here havent been a comlete waste of time

 

[1john]

You dont want help, you want a miricle, you are unwilling to help yourself!

You CANT drill rafters, you will struggle to install a compliant ring final circuit in a kitchen with all of the insulation required in a loft space over the cables. What size cable have you calculated that you will require?? did they teach you about thermal effects, grouping factors and such when doing a physics degree? ?If you decide to put the wrong size cable in and dont calculate it properly it will get hot / catch fire!!!!!

Researching information is as dangerous as thinking you know all the questions you need to ask, how do you know the information you have found is to date, correct, or not a very cleverly worded pish take??

There is a Wiki at the top of the main electrics page, read it for some of your answers and some things you didn't know you needed to know. A physics degree is all well and good but it has nothing to do with designing, constructing, inspecting and testing an electrical installation, is as far, far from being specific enough. Also you have lied in a previous thread about having an electrician to connect everything up and do the testing, this clearly isn't true as he would want to he designing this installation and seeing it through every stage if he is going to be signing his life away to your work!

My extension is a living area not a kitchen

Also i didnt lie, i do have a electrician. I was planning on using him to test the system i had installed and install a new consumer unit. I was then told in the other thread that i couldnt do the work myself unless under his supervision. Building control told me different and that it is ok for me to do it and for him to test the system.

This is what i am going to do once i have found out the correct way to install the electrics. I shall look for this information elsewhere as i am not going to find it here.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

This is what i am going to do once i have found out the correct way to install the electrics. I shall look for this information elsewhere as i am not going to find it here.

• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:books
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/electricity.html
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/domesticinstallations.html
  
• http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/1.1.htm[/list]I suggest you get stuck into the last link right away - it won't give you design ideas, and unfortunately it doesn't refer to the current edition of the Wiring Regulations, but it's free, and will still give you a good grounding which you can augment with more up to date publications.