Im confused, how can water collect in your garden if behind your fence the land slopes down to the bypass, surely the surface water would run down the embankment and run into the drainage of the bypass. Can you give us a photo loooking to the back of your garden with a description of where the water is collecting and how. Would it be possible to install some sort of soak-away that discharges down the embankment?
Storm Drain
- Thread starter nickyb
- Start date
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R
RedHerring2
@DannyBoy, while it should be perfectly possible and acceptable for a soakaway to be installed, what Nicky can not do is collect/divert water to discharge down the embankment. That would be classed as causing a nuisance.
It's also perfectly feasible for an impermeable layer or barrier being present to prevent the water draining away down the embankment.
It might even have been acceptable for the highways authority to have installed an impermeable barrier to prevent surface water draining onto the embankment, as if to say: "It's your surface water, you deal with it".
Check out this link that I provided earlier. It's Canadian, I think, but the gist of it is based on British principles.
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/engineer/facts/98-015.htm
Nicky might be able to do the same thing as the highways may have done, to install a barrier to prevent the neighbour's surface water draining onto his/her property, but it would be far simpler to deal with it than to prevent it.
It's also perfectly feasible for an impermeable layer or barrier being present to prevent the water draining away down the embankment.
It might even have been acceptable for the highways authority to have installed an impermeable barrier to prevent surface water draining onto the embankment, as if to say: "It's your surface water, you deal with it".
Check out this link that I provided earlier. It's Canadian, I think, but the gist of it is based on British principles.
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/engineer/facts/98-015.htm
Nicky might be able to do the same thing as the highways may have done, to install a barrier to prevent the neighbour's surface water draining onto his/her property, but it would be far simpler to deal with it than to prevent it.
Hi RH2,
Thanks for the detailed info, thats why i asked can we have a picture towards to embankment so we can see why surface water cannot run off down there. I agree that fixing/installing the soakaway is probably the best option.
Dan
Thanks for the detailed info, thats why i asked can we have a picture towards to embankment so we can see why surface water cannot run off down there. I agree that fixing/installing the soakaway is probably the best option.
Dan
Thanks Guy's
I dont have a photo of behind the fence as i cant realy get to it without ending up on the bypass.
its basicaly a small grass / bushy bancking leading down prob 2meters lower than my garden.
I have attached another photo showing the large blue area that seems to hold the water like a bowl (due to the gardens shape) and the brown area shown where i have been digging as the earth here was very very vet (stuck the shovel in and nearly lost it!)
we have had rain for a few days now but it has not yet flooded.
When we moved in the neighbour said they built a wall to stop the water flooding in to their garden, im told it used to be a lot worse..
I am also told the old owner built a large summer house down there on a concrete base, i have not yet found the base but i would not have thought it would have been removed as they didnt do anything else with the house or garden!
the neighbour said this base collapsed and damaged the storm drain, how acurate this is who knows.
Im guessing the only real way to find out is to get my back in to it and keep digging.
I dont have a photo of behind the fence as i cant realy get to it without ending up on the bypass.
its basicaly a small grass / bushy bancking leading down prob 2meters lower than my garden.
I have attached another photo showing the large blue area that seems to hold the water like a bowl (due to the gardens shape) and the brown area shown where i have been digging as the earth here was very very vet (stuck the shovel in and nearly lost it!)
we have had rain for a few days now but it has not yet flooded.
When we moved in the neighbour said they built a wall to stop the water flooding in to their garden, im told it used to be a lot worse..
I am also told the old owner built a large summer house down there on a concrete base, i have not yet found the base but i would not have thought it would have been removed as they didnt do anything else with the house or garden!
the neighbour said this base collapsed and damaged the storm drain, how acurate this is who knows.
Im guessing the only real way to find out is to get my back in to it and keep digging.
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RedHerring2
I think, that because this wet area is the lowest point around, other than the embankment, that all the surface water from yours and your neighbours' gardens is ending up at that point before draining away through the soil, no doubt migrating towards the embankment.
Your neighbour is/was entitled to prevent surface water from your property draining onto their propery, but, if in the process, they have exacerbated your problem or are diverting the surface water from theirs to yours, they may have acted unfairly
A typical soakaway may not be sufficient to accomodate that amount of rainwater and you may have to over-spec' it a bit. Or consider other options.
I doubt that the combined sewer is damaged. Note my use of 'combined sewer' not just a 'storm drain'. Storm drain suggests surface water only and your nighbourhood clearly has a combined system, (from the plan).
I fail to see how a floor slab for a summer house could damage a drain of such magnitude that would be required for that neighbourhood.
I think that the average water consumption is about 200 liters per day. There are at least 25 properties feeding into that combined sewer. Assuming 1.5 people per household, that's at least 25 houses X 1.5 people X 200litres per day = 7500 litres per day. (or 7.5 metres³) And that's only personal water consumption. Add to that rainfall from all those properties and the surrounding roads, you'd have a reasonable size pond in your garden.
Although, of course, slight damage can mean only a little water escapes tfrom the drain, not all of it. but it would still smell foul!
Incidentally, logic dictates that the summer house would have been in one of the rear corners of the garden.
There might be other options that have not been considered, such as planting a few thirsty trees along the rear of your boundary, or creating a bog garden, or similar.
Your neighbour is/was entitled to prevent surface water from your property draining onto their propery, but, if in the process, they have exacerbated your problem or are diverting the surface water from theirs to yours, they may have acted unfairly
A typical soakaway may not be sufficient to accomodate that amount of rainwater and you may have to over-spec' it a bit. Or consider other options.
I doubt that the combined sewer is damaged. Note my use of 'combined sewer' not just a 'storm drain'. Storm drain suggests surface water only and your nighbourhood clearly has a combined system, (from the plan).
I fail to see how a floor slab for a summer house could damage a drain of such magnitude that would be required for that neighbourhood.
I think that the average water consumption is about 200 liters per day. There are at least 25 properties feeding into that combined sewer. Assuming 1.5 people per household, that's at least 25 houses X 1.5 people X 200litres per day = 7500 litres per day. (or 7.5 metres³) And that's only personal water consumption. Add to that rainfall from all those properties and the surrounding roads, you'd have a reasonable size pond in your garden.
Although, of course, slight damage can mean only a little water escapes tfrom the drain, not all of it. but it would still smell foul!
Incidentally, logic dictates that the summer house would have been in one of the rear corners of the garden.
There might be other options that have not been considered, such as planting a few thirsty trees along the rear of your boundary, or creating a bog garden, or similar.
Looking at old photos there used to be at least 12 very large trees along the back fence.
If i were to dig a small (ish) trench sloping from the center of the garden to the fence then a further trench along the fence do you think this would work?
I could cover the trench over with a decked path and landscape the garden to hide this.
Also would it be illegal to landscape the garden so the water made its own way down behind the fence...afterall it does seem that thats whats happening in my garden....??
If i were to dig a small (ish) trench sloping from the center of the garden to the fence then a further trench along the fence do you think this would work?
I could cover the trench over with a decked path and landscape the garden to hide this.
Also would it be illegal to landscape the garden so the water made its own way down behind the fence...afterall it does seem that thats whats happening in my garden....??
R
RedHerring2
There are some figures printed alongside the drains indicated on the plan, can you tell us what they are?
I suspect it might be the diameter and the construction of the pipes. It is certainly worth checking with the local authority to ascertain the depth of these drains.
I suspect it might be the diameter and the construction of the pipes. It is certainly worth checking with the local authority to ascertain the depth of these drains.
R
RedHerring2
I think you may need to consider a herringbone pattern, something like as indicated here:
http://www.pavingexpert.com/drain03.htm
Only to a soakaway not an outfall.
I'm no expert, but from what I understand, it's perfectly acceptable to encourage surface water to drain into the ground and where it migrates to from there is anyone's guess.
What you can not do is to collect and divert the surface water to discharge down the embankment. It would be classed as causing a nuisance and could even be dangerous to the road users. But would anyone know or find out?
It looks as though the top pipe (closest to the house) has the following:-
VC 150
On the combined chamber symbol in next door garden it has the text:
ST14887537
The pipes at the bottom of the garden (from each neighbour) states:
VC 150
And the final pipe leading away to the bypass states:
VC 225
After each of the VC numbers there does seem to be 2 letters i cant quite make them out (either MM or RM maybe)
VC 150
On the combined chamber symbol in next door garden it has the text:
ST14887537
The pipes at the bottom of the garden (from each neighbour) states:
VC 150
And the final pipe leading away to the bypass states:
VC 225
After each of the VC numbers there does seem to be 2 letters i cant quite make them out (either MM or RM maybe)
R
RedHerring2
I'm guessing that the VC stands for Vitreous Clay and the 150/225 is the diameter of the pipes in mm.
I have no idea what the ST148... is or the MM/RM.
Where's the more experienced people when you need 'em?
I have no idea what the ST148... is or the MM/RM.
Where's the more experienced people when you need 'em?
We will get there in the end lol.....
Cant wait to get it sorted and start doing the garden, there so much potential but no point in doing it only for it to flood every year....besides im still waiting for 3 months wages at the moment so its just the shovel and I...haha
Cant wait to get it sorted and start doing the garden, there so much potential but no point in doing it only for it to flood every year....besides im still waiting for 3 months wages at the moment so its just the shovel and I...haha
RedHerring2 you are spot on! The legend refers to the pipe dia in mm and its construction, (in this case V.C. is vitrified clay.) Some soakaway would be needed there, the pipe leaving nickyb's property carrying all the water is 325mm dia (thats 13" in old money) and is sized to carry the runoff from the entire estate. However should the drawing be correct, the pipe runs off outside the scope of the plan, so it should remove the water from site as per design. Soakaway not necessary!
The other figures I think are reference numbers to the manholes, probably for the sewerage undertakers records. With thousands of chambers, pumping stations and other apparatus to look after it probably helps identify a particular location with its own unique reference.
If that drawing is correct then that is one hell of a wierd layout.... Flows going back on themselves, pipes converging with no mention of a chamber, little wonder it dont work!!!!
Any repairs to this though are likely to be well outside the scope of DIY, basically due to the probable depth of the inverts and the size of the pipework involved. A section of 300mm clay pipe will require mechanical lifting due to its size and weight. Think nickyb you will have to bite the bullet and involve the sewerage undertaker, be that Welsh Water or whoever. Its draining a lot of properties (and likely the highways as well), i'd be extremely surprised if its not an adopted public sewer. Be prepared though for the garden to resemble a bomb crater if they do start digging!
Edit: Dwr Cymru (Bottom L/H of plan) is Welsh Water, looks like its their plan, and their sewer! Get them onto it!
The other figures I think are reference numbers to the manholes, probably for the sewerage undertakers records. With thousands of chambers, pumping stations and other apparatus to look after it probably helps identify a particular location with its own unique reference.
If that drawing is correct then that is one hell of a wierd layout.... Flows going back on themselves, pipes converging with no mention of a chamber, little wonder it dont work!!!!
Any repairs to this though are likely to be well outside the scope of DIY, basically due to the probable depth of the inverts and the size of the pipework involved. A section of 300mm clay pipe will require mechanical lifting due to its size and weight. Think nickyb you will have to bite the bullet and involve the sewerage undertaker, be that Welsh Water or whoever. Its draining a lot of properties (and likely the highways as well), i'd be extremely surprised if its not an adopted public sewer. Be prepared though for the garden to resemble a bomb crater if they do start digging!
Edit: Dwr Cymru (Bottom L/H of plan) is Welsh Water, looks like its their plan, and their sewer! Get them onto it!
Thanks for the help chaps, this is starting to make sense.
The 2 things I still don't understand are:
1) if I do call welsh water and there is an issue could they insist I cover the costs or contribute towards the cost as it's on my property? If this is the case I just can't afford to even entertain involving them and I would have to leave it as it is.
2) there only seems to be water i.e no sewerage, being combined pipes would there not be all sorts of nasty things down there along with a smell?
After a heavy rain fall (quite often being Wales) it floods but seems to go on a day or 2.
The neighbour did say it used to be a he'll of a lot worse and I'm told they were in the window watching what looked like a fountain going back a few years.
As I have only been here for 3 months and before me the house was empty for a year I don't have much to go from other than what I'm being told.
Thanks again
The 2 things I still don't understand are:
1) if I do call welsh water and there is an issue could they insist I cover the costs or contribute towards the cost as it's on my property? If this is the case I just can't afford to even entertain involving them and I would have to leave it as it is.
2) there only seems to be water i.e no sewerage, being combined pipes would there not be all sorts of nasty things down there along with a smell?
After a heavy rain fall (quite often being Wales) it floods but seems to go on a day or 2.
The neighbour did say it used to be a he'll of a lot worse and I'm told they were in the window watching what looked like a fountain going back a few years.
As I have only been here for 3 months and before me the house was empty for a year I don't have much to go from other than what I'm being told.
Thanks again
Highly unlikely they'd ask for any money, if its their sewer its maintainable at their expense, its what you pay water and sewerage rates for. Should be an easement in the deeds for your property for the sewer allowing them access whenever required to carry out works on it as necessary. Maybe worth speaking to your insurance people to see where you stand should Welsh Water spit their dummy out and try to bankrupt you with the bill....
Worth noting though, if it is a private sewer still at this point, any maintenance costs should be split between all parties connected upstream of the problem, and IIRC amount paid increases with the length of pipework used. (i.e. those at the top of the run use all the pipework to said point so have to pay the most. Conversely you should use the least so will pay least.) Environmental Health at the council will be able to shed more light on this.
What age is the property? Seperate systems became favourable around the 50's I think, believe me if that was a combined sewer you'd know! (Evidence would be left shall we say after it overflowed.... ) The fountain is quite imaginable, its a matter of hydraulics. Fluids cannot be compressed, so with the weight and flow of the water at that point draining from uphill/upstream its gotta go somewhere! Surcharged sewers have often been known to lift heavy (2 man lift) manhole covers out of their frames if the pressure is sufficient!
Its possible there is also groundwater getting into the system, so a flow for several days after rain is not unlikely. Also, if there are 'leaks' elsewhere upstream the ground surrounding the pipework can become saturated when the pipes are surcharged, this then slowly drains back over time.
Worth noting though, if it is a private sewer still at this point, any maintenance costs should be split between all parties connected upstream of the problem, and IIRC amount paid increases with the length of pipework used. (i.e. those at the top of the run use all the pipework to said point so have to pay the most. Conversely you should use the least so will pay least.) Environmental Health at the council will be able to shed more light on this.
What age is the property? Seperate systems became favourable around the 50's I think, believe me if that was a combined sewer you'd know! (Evidence would be left shall we say after it overflowed....
) The fountain is quite imaginable, its a matter of hydraulics. Fluids cannot be compressed, so with the weight and flow of the water at that point draining from uphill/upstream its gotta go somewhere! Surcharged sewers have often been known to lift heavy (2 man lift) manhole covers out of their frames if the pressure is sufficient! Its possible there is also groundwater getting into the system, so a flow for several days after rain is not unlikely. Also, if there are 'leaks' elsewhere upstream the ground surrounding the pipework can become saturated when the pipes are surcharged, this then slowly drains back over time.
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