Oh and - isn't Putin a bit of a leftie?
Streets of Rage
- Thread starter JBR
- Start date
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You didn't bother to read the small print, it was there in black and white.
JBR said:
I also don't remember labour saying they would recklessly spend, or the Tories saying how they would muck up military spending cutbacks (and other things).
Wasnt hard to predict though, that's why people who cry "but they told me" are just copping out, buyer beware!
I wasn't eligble for voting so little point in reading the small print. And as I said that's the politicians job.
But I'll be voting come the referendum. Be my first chance to have a say on it.
You europhiles can start studying the small print on how we'll survive outside the eu.
But I'll be voting come the referendum. Be my first chance to have a say on it.
You europhiles can start studying the small print on how we'll survive outside the eu.
N
Newboy
Whilst I respect your opinions and your ability to conduct a reasoned debate (quite a rarity on these pages!) I find it fascinating that you seem to lay the blame for everything on your predecessors. I assume that you have some clairvoyant abilities that mean all decisions taken today will be right in 10/20/30/40/50 years time?
The logic in a lot of your (well reasoned) arguments seems to be "well I've paid in so I can take out"
eg alcohol - I pay more in duty/tax than it costs to treat me so I can behave however I wish. Using that logic, I pay road tax and fuel duty so I can behave how I want to on the road.
Voting for entry into the Common Market" did not constitute voting for the EU in it's present form (have a look for the various manifestos and see if you can find the small print to which you refer).
The welfare state wasn't conceived to provide a permanent income source - it was supposed to provide a basic safety net. What it has become is nothing resembling what it was envisioned to be at it's inception.
Mortgage and rental payments are a problem due to the bizarre way this country values it's housing stock and the plummeting interest rates that have enabled bigger and bigger mortgages to be "affordable". I'm sure that this current generation would pass out if interest rates on mortgages reached 16.5% as I remember mine doing - accounting for almost 60% of my income at the time.
As far as crime rates falling - granted the headline is but the largest group of people subject to violent crime is now males aged 16-24 , most of which is perpetrated by the same gender and age group.
I suspect that in forty years time you will be criticising the younger generation for their behaviour as that seems to be the trend of all generations - at which point you will have become a grumpy g*t like the rest of us!
The logic in a lot of your (well reasoned) arguments seems to be "well I've paid in so I can take out"
eg alcohol - I pay more in duty/tax than it costs to treat me so I can behave however I wish. Using that logic, I pay road tax and fuel duty so I can behave how I want to on the road.
Voting for entry into the Common Market" did not constitute voting for the EU in it's present form (have a look for the various manifestos and see if you can find the small print to which you refer).
The welfare state wasn't conceived to provide a permanent income source - it was supposed to provide a basic safety net. What it has become is nothing resembling what it was envisioned to be at it's inception.
Mortgage and rental payments are a problem due to the bizarre way this country values it's housing stock and the plummeting interest rates that have enabled bigger and bigger mortgages to be "affordable". I'm sure that this current generation would pass out if interest rates on mortgages reached 16.5% as I remember mine doing - accounting for almost 60% of my income at the time.
As far as crime rates falling - granted the headline is but the largest group of people subject to violent crime is now males aged 16-24 , most of which is perpetrated by the same gender and age group.
I suspect that in forty years time you will be criticising the younger generation for their behaviour as that seems to be the trend of all generations - at which point you will have become a grumpy g*t like the rest of us!
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I think that everyone would agree that all politicians say one thing when they want our votes yet either don't do it, or even do the direct opposite, when they have got what they want. That is accepted as the norm these days which, I guess, is why so many people these days are cynical of politicians' promises and don't even bother to cast their votes in general elections.
The difference is that the EEC was offered to us as a free-trade organisation (with which I am quite happy), and nothing else. I don't think there was ever a mention of a possibility that it would become a political dictatorship, nor a guarantee that it wouldn't.
This, as far as I'm concerned, was something that was completely unforeseen unless, of course, something was written down somewhere that I was unaware of.
Well facts i can gather
Revenue from Alcohol ~ £14.6Bn per year.
Alcohol costs
£3.5Bn -NHS (more than smoking related disease)
£11Bn -Crime
Est 7.3Bn -"lost productivity"
So no people who drink too much do not fund the NHS or "pay their own way".... If you took out moderate drinkers and those who are yet to (ab)use the NHS/ social services then they cost a lot more than they contribute by a long way.
From another perspective after spending many nights stitching these people up in A&E i now am in another area and its just as busy...all that would change is that other people would get more time and be seen quicker and no one would lose a job in he NHS.
Revenue from Alcohol ~ £14.6Bn per year.
Alcohol costs
£3.5Bn -NHS (more than smoking related disease)
£11Bn -Crime
Est 7.3Bn -"lost productivity"
So no people who drink too much do not fund the NHS or "pay their own way".... If you took out moderate drinkers and those who are yet to (ab)use the NHS/ social services then they cost a lot more than they contribute by a long way.
From another perspective after spending many nights stitching these people up in A&E i now am in another area and its just as busy...all that would change is that other people would get more time and be seen quicker and no one would lose a job in he NHS.
I think you'd look at it differently if you had been puked on, sworn at and even physically abused on a regular basis. You should try it sometime.
It has always been thus, which is why when voting for an MP you should look at who they are, their past links and past voting habits.
Jebus, people will spend more time looking up reviews for a new TV or washing machine rather than just trust the flashy advert, yet when it comes to an MP, a person responsible for law making, they will just take their pamphlets at face value
Wiki = "Treaty of Rome (1957)[5] provided a right for the free movement of workers within the European Economic Community".
There you go, black and white, 18 years before the refurendum, and the last time we had this discussion I even linked to some manifestoes that actually talked about immigration.
Lost productivity is two things, people getting sick/dying, and people not working and earning money for the economy. It is double counting the cost to the NHS, and it is classing money lost to the private sector as a cost to the government, which is clearly false.
It is also patently wrong to count lost productivity as a cost to the government, as that means people taking early retiriment on their own funds are a 'cost', that stay at home mothers are a 'cost', that someone going to uni at their own expense, or anything that causes people to choose not to work or be unable to work as a 'cost' to the government (again not double counting NHS costs), it's an accountancy trick used by puritans and government to justify ever more taxes. You could also argue that saving money is a 'cost' as that money is then not being given to the government or spent on products or services.
And I would highly question the crime figure, it makes a patent assumption that all crime commited by drunk people is caused by their drunkeness, rubbish.
And of course you have not factored in savings to the government, people that die early don't need pensions, that's a big saving for the government.
Actually I don't, I just find it amusing when old people moan about the youth of today, as if they didn’t have an equal or greater part to play in the troubles we face today, and that football hooliganism and gang crime in their day was just fiction, beating homeless people to death is nothing new.
Young people equally have the ability to go on poll tax type riots to fight the injustice of massively inflated rents and mortgages. Of course a lot of old people won’t like that, lots of them use rip off house prices and mortgages to fund their retirement.
The argument isn’t you can behave that way if you pay for it, the argument is that to err is human.
You can't tax away bad behaviour, and history has shown such tactics create more unintended problems than taxing fixes. Already the black market for alcohol is getting bigger, and fake alcohol is killing people.
Most mortgages and rents for young people are already 60-80% of single income today.
Given time, we will either see a house price crash, or riots. The london riots of a few years ago are a taster, a lot of it was just oppertunistic dick heads
It has always been thus, which is why when voting for an MP you should look at who they are, their past links and past voting habits.
Jebus, people will spend more time looking up reviews for a new TV or washing machine rather than just trust the flashy advert, yet when it comes to an MP, a person responsible for law making, they will just take their pamphlets at face value
I quite agree. Never believe what politicians promise; always consider what they have done in the past.
As I said, I don't remember seeing anything about the EEC becoming a political dictatorship. As for the right to free movement you quote above, I should point out that I was five years old at the time and had not yet been granted voting rights, not that I was particularly interested in those days.
Well it seemed to exist in its first guise for many years. Why could it not have continued as it was?
Oh yes, because certain mandarins yearned for more power, and that included the expansion of their empire.
[quote="JBR";p="3247839"Well it seemed to exist in its first guise for many years. Why could it not have continued as it was?[/quote]
Because institutions always look to expand their power, it could never have continued as it was, never.
Smaller democracy is better democracy, A project as large as the EU would always have tried to expand itself into a political body, then into a federal project.
Bout as predictable as night follows day.
Because institutions always look to expand their power, it could never have continued as it was, never.
Smaller democracy is better democracy, A project as large as the EU would always have tried to expand itself into a political body, then into a federal project.
Bout as predictable as night follows day.
"Smaller democracy is better democracy, A project as large as the EU would always have tried to expand itself into a political body, then into a federal project."
"Bout as predictable as night follows day."
Not really. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
When hitler was building Germany into a power house very few believed he would unleash all that power on surrounding countries in a very violent manner.
"Bout as predictable as night follows day."
Not really. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
When hitler was building Germany into a power house very few believed he would unleash all that power on surrounding countries in a very violent manner.
Governments, institutions and political bodies always try to increase their power sphere.
It is not hindsight, it is history, proven time and again.
Ever heard of something called the US constitution, and what it was meant to do?
Hurr duur, you only need hindsight because you can't see what is in front of you.
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