Terminating sockets with a plug instead of an FCU

[Kalibre46]

I acknowledge that the title and the subject sounds a bit daft and is likely to get me some flak, but bear with me I'll explain what I'm trying to achieve.

I'm leasing a old barn and am trying to give it a bit of a cheap facelift and make it into a photography studio for myself. This involves a couple of stud walls for changing room, office and kitchenette. There are currently 3 separate double-sockets in the barn, with each terminating on a dedicated 16amp MCB in the CU.

My first thought was that I will run an extension lead from each socket (as they are not conveniently located) to power the items in each area (fridge, kettle etc). However, now the stud walls are built I have an opportunity to put in some dry lining boxes and socket fronts, which lets face it look much better than trailing extension leads.

The question: Would I be committing some heinous crime if I were to wire in each dry-lining box socket with flex cable and a 13amp fused plug? Then I can just plug them into the existing sockets still (which will be behind furniture) but the presentation at the appliance end is much neater.

It's essentially achieving the same thing, however instead of an extension socket at the end of the cable it's a dry-lining box and a socket. Does that make sense?

Thanks in advance.

 

[EFLImpudence]

If each socket is on a radial (i.e. single line cable) circuit then you may extend to as many sockets as you wish.
Obviously each circuit will be limited to 16A.

However, depending on the cable size and installation method you may be able to increase the MCB to 20A or 25A.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm leasing a old barn and am trying to give it a bit of a cheap facelift and make it into a photography studio for myself.

When you applied for Building Regulations approval, what did you say about the way you would ensure that the electrical work would comply with Part P?

If you don't do what you said/allowed to be said on your behalf/by default agreed to, then you may struggle to get a completion certificate.

Also you may find that your public liability insurance requires you to use a qualified electrician.

The question: Would I be committing some heinous crime if I were to wire in each dry-lining box socket with flex cable and a 13amp fused plug? Then I can just plug them into the existing sockets still (which will be behind furniture) but the presentation at the appliance end is much neater.

That is just so not the way to supply sockets, and IMO contravenes the regulation on good workmanship.

Please get an electrician (as per the above, you may have no choice anyway).

 

[Kalibre46]

If each socket is on a radial (i.e. single line cable) circuit then you may extend to as many sockets as you wish.
Obviously each circuit will be limited to 16A.

However, depending on the cable size and installation method you may be able to increase the MCB to 20A or 25A.

Thanks, they are indeed radial. But does it make any difference if they are added via a plug rather than wired directly?

 

[JohnW2]

If each socket is on a radial (i.e. single line cable) circuit then you may extend to as many sockets as you wish. Obviously each circuit will be limited to 16A. ... However, depending on the cable size and installation method you may be able to increase the MCB to 20A or 25A.

Thanks, they are indeed radial. But does it make any difference if they are added via a plug rather than wired directly?

Well, it wouldn't look so nice (and certainly not 'professional'), and the fuse in the plug would obviously limit you to a maximum of 13A total for all the socket(s) connected via the plug. Connected directly you would have at least 16A available and, as EFLI has said, perhaps an opportunity to increase that to 20A, or possibly even 25A.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Kalibre46]

If each socket is on a radial (i.e. single line cable) circuit then you may extend to as many sockets as you wish. Obviously each circuit will be limited to 16A. ... However, depending on the cable size and installation method you may be able to increase the MCB to 20A or 25A.

Thanks, they are indeed radial. But does it make any difference if they are added via a plug rather than wired directly?

Well, it wouldn't look so nice (and certainly not 'professional'), and the fuse in the plug would obviously limit you to a maximum of 13A total for all the socket(s) connected via the plug. Connected directly you would have at least 16A available and, as EFLI has said, perhaps an opportunity to increase that to 20A, or possibly even 25A.

Kind Regards, John

Ok many thanks. Totally agree regarding the professional thing, but this is a bit of a quick hack and easily removable once the lease expires in the future, I certainly wouldn't do it in my home!

Just wanted to ensure I wasn't missing anything stupid/obvious.

Out of interest, why are all the socket available in Screwfix etc stated as 13amp if they can handle more? Or are there specific one's specifically rated higher and available elsewhere?

 

[EFLImpudence]

It's been discussed many times - have a search.

Other than they take 13A plugs we don't really know.

 

[JohnW2]

Out of interest, why are all the socket available in Screwfix etc stated as 13amp if they can handle more? Or are there specific one's specifically rated higher and available elsewhere?

Each 'socket output' is obviously limited to 13A, since the associated plug cannot have a fuse larger than 13A.

As for what total current (total of two outlets) one should draw from a double socket,if you look in the archives of a forum like this you will find many very lengthy, and sometimes quite heated, debates - which is a sure sign that no-one really knows the answer!! A few think that the maximum is just 13A total across both outlets/plugs (because they usually have "13A" written on the back), some believe that they can stand 26A (i.e. two 'full' 13A loads). Most seem to believe that the actual practical answer is somewhere between those two extremes, a common belief being that the safe limit is about "20A total". However, as I say, despite assertions you'll see, no-one seems to know for sure (I once had a lengthy discussion about this with a Tech Support guy at MK, and ended up none the wiser!)

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

It's been discussed many times - have a search. ... Other than they take 13A plugs we don't really know.

Indeed - that's the short answer. I was typing the slightly longer one whilst you were posting that

Kind Regards, John

 

[Kalibre46]

Out of interest, why are all the socket available in Screwfix etc stated as 13amp if they can handle more? Or are there specific one's specifically rated higher and available elsewhere?

Each 'socket output' is obviously limited to 13A, since the associated plug cannot have a fuse larger than 13A.

As for what total current (total of two outlets) one should draw from a double socket,if you look in the archives of a forum like this you will find many very lengthy, and sometimes quite heated, debates - which is a sure sign that no-one really knows the answer!! A few think that the maximum is just 13A total across both outlets/plugs (because they usually have "13A" written on the back), some believe that they can stand 26A (i.e. two 'full' 13A loads). Most seem to believe that the actual practical answer is somewhere between those two extremes, a common belief being that the safe limit is about "20A total". However, as I say, despite assertions you'll see, no-one seems to know for sure (I once had a lengthy discussion about this with a Tech Support guy at MK, and ended up none the wiser!)

Kind Regards, John

ah, got it. Thanks again!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I can't help feeling that you are deliberately ignoring this:

When you applied for Building Regulations approval, what did you say about the way you would ensure that the electrical work would comply with Part P?

If you don't do what you said/allowed to be said on your behalf/by default agreed to, then you may struggle to get a completion certificate.

Also you may find that your public liability insurance requires you to use a qualified electrician.

If you are proposing to take an agricultural building, carry out building work, change its use, start running a business from it, having members of the public come into it, without following the Building Regulations for fire precautions and escape routes, electrical safety, energy efficiency etc, and without permission for change of use, and without insurances then you're a complete fool.

 

[Kalibre46]

I can't help feeling that you are deliberately ignoring this:

When you applied for Building Regulations approval, what did you say about the way you would ensure that the electrical work would comply with Part P?

If you don't do what you said/allowed to be said on your behalf/by default agreed to, then you may struggle to get a completion certificate.

Also you may find that your public liability insurance requires you to use a qualified electrician.

If you are proposing to take an agricultural building, carry out building work, change its use, start running a business from it, having members of the public come into it, without following the Building Regulations for fire precautions and escape routes, electrical safety, energy efficiency etc, and without permission for change of use, and without insurances then you're a complete fool.

Not ignoring it, just genuinely didn't see that post!

I guess that doesn't make me a fool luckily, because I have had discussions with the local authorities, am officially NOT changing it's use, am adhering to all fire precautions, escape routes, etc etc. I merely had a question regarding the termination of these sockets. In discussions with the authority I mentioned that all electrical appliances will be using the existing electrical sockets (be it directly or via extension), hence the source of my original question.

So I would very much be interested to hear what everyone says on the subject of the 'good workmanship' you mentioned and if I would be in breach of the regulations on this basis. So far it appears only yourself has the opinion that I might be. Anyone?

 

[flameport]

It's the wrong thing to do and you know it:

but this is a bit of a quick hack and easily removable once the lease expires in the future, I certainly wouldn't do it in my home

Not good enough for your own home = not good enough for anywhere.

If you already have new walls and new sockets, connect them properly. Similar effort involved and probably cheaper.

 

[JohnW2]

So I would very much be interested to hear what everyone says on the subject of the 'good workmanship' you mentioned and if I would be in breach of the regulations on this basis. So far it appears only yourself has the opinion that I might be. Anyone?

The 'good workmanship' regulation is an incredibly vague 'catch all' one which BAS wheels out whenever he personally does not like something but can't think of any other specific regulation which it contravenes. My grandfather would have said the same - a lot of tutting and an assertion that "unprofessional = poor workmanship"

As I said before, what you're proposing is neither 'nice' nor 'professional', and limits you to 13A on the socket(s) fed from one plug, but (provided the cable is not a trip hazard, and that all the wring done competently and safely!) it is no less safe than plugging anything else into a 13A socket - so I doubt that, even though they might not 'like it', either, many people other than BAS would seriously suggest that it contravened the intended spirit of the regulation about 'good workmanship' (provided everything was wired competently and safely!).

Having said all that, it is quite probably virtually as easy, and maybe even cheaper, to 'do it properly' (and then virtually as easy to 'undo' when you need to), so I'm not really sure why you're adopting this approach.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Kalibre46]

It's the wrong thing to do and you know it:

but this is a bit of a quick hack and easily removable once the lease expires in the future, I certainly wouldn't do it in my home

Not good enough for your own home = not good enough for anywhere.

If you already have new walls and new sockets, connect them properly. Similar effort involved and probably cheaper.

Not at all, from what I've heard it is not 'wrong' it merely isn't best practise and/or the most efficient use of time/effort in various situations. I would not do it in my home because my home is of a standard construction with existing standard systems and I would demand a certain level of finish also. The barn is far from this and contains voids, wiring, systems, conditions and other peculiarities specific to it and my situation.

My concern was and is that I do nothing that is neither outright dangerous, illegal or obviously against regulations. Whether it is the right thing for the job at hand, factoring in the specifics mentioned above is something I alone will need to consider once armed with all the facts. Hence me valuing constructive comments that have a bearing on the regulations etc.