Washer and dryer in a shower room

[studentspark]

Room with a shower (Shower tray and glass enclosure) has had washer and dryer for years.

Its quite a big space and the appliances are well out of the zones by about 2m.
RCD protected on fused spurs.
The owners have bought new appliances which were delivered, but the delivery /installation people refused to install (They would not even put them in the same room, still in the packaging, as its illegal!)

The equipment is Miele. I know you can put equipment in this area if its RCD protected, out side zone two, on a fused spur, and here is the thing, suitable for the area according to the manufacturer.

I phoned Miele to ask it they are happy for their equipment to be in this environment, the customer service person said we don't advise to install in shower rooms. no make or model was mentioned, just a blanket no.
I asked if this was the advice they give for all of Europe, because I know its very common to have appliances in bathroom abroad. I got the same answer We do not advise it.
Is this just a case over covering their backs?

I have read the installation manual and not mention is made of which zones it can be installed.

This will be a real issue for the customer, if the appliances can not be installed where they are.
What do you think ?

Thanks

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

I think, although it is compliant providing the equipment is suitable for the environment and hardwired via FCU and RCD protected. It is not ideal! And I too would not recommend it!
But would not object to it, if there was no other suitable location.

 

[ericmark]

In the UK 3 meters is the spacing for a socket in a bathroom which in real terms means shower in a bedroom can still have a socket no bathroom would be that big. As to manufactures recommendations until amendment 3 they had to be followed, this has been relaxed but I don't have a copy of amendment 3 to say what has replaced it. You can have a FCU in a bathroom outside the zones but anything fitted in a bathroom has to be designed for that environment and clearly the washer/drier is not designed for that environment.

 

[stillp]

Unless the manufacturer states it is suitable for that environment, then it isn't. Only they know what materials they've used.

 

[studentspark]

Thanks for the reply.
Just seems odd that these machines are deemed ok to be installed in bathrooms
around Europe, but not in Britain.

The instructions in the manual do not say anything about where it can be installed, and they go in to quite some detail. For example mentioning that they should not be used by people with 'reduced mental capacity' nothing about a shower room thought

 

[stillp]

Where are they deemed to be OK in bathrooms?

 

[studentspark]

?

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

For example mentioning that they should not be used by people with 'reduced mental capacity'

Is that why the missus, does not allow me to do the laundry

 

[ericmark]

I have seen some very dangerous installation which have been that way for years without anyone being injured. Until it goes wrong no one seems to mind. Only when something does go wrong does any one try to blame. The problem is often that blame does not stick to the guilty party. Read court cases and it's the landlord, electrician or electrical supervisor who is found guilty rarely is the occupier blamed. I think courts feel he has already had enough loses even if what he did was silly.

This has resulted in the jobs worth culture no one wants to be that guy in court so if there is anything which could come back to bite one then reject the job. Just not worth the risk. I will admit I would do the same. No way do I want to have to prove I was not a fault in a court, even if I win it will not do my reputation any good we all say no smoke without fire.

From time to time all items go wrong. Some guy called Murphy wrote a law about it. Put that item where it is not recommended and what ever goes wrong will be blamed on the environment.

As to other countries in Fijian Islands they walk on fire. That does not mean we should do it in the UK. We don't permit non polarised sockets, we don't allow free air changes of direction in conduit and I am sure there are things like out ring final allowed in this country but banned in many others. If you live in UK then you obey UK rules and customs.

There are many jobs I would not do, but neither would I condemn someone else who does them. So I would say no if you asked me to do it but would not code it if doing an EICR.

 

[Jackrae]

A peculiarity of the english language is that "We do not advise you to instal in a bathroom" is not the same as "We advise you not to instal it in a bathroom"
At the end of the day we do what we will and take our chance and live with it (or maybe not ), unless the property is rented and the landlord is shown to have acted without due diligence to the welfare of his client.

 

[seasickstevie]

... we don't allow free air changes of direction in conduit

What reg number is that?

 

[studentspark]

I completely get your point Eric, but is a properly installed appliance a danger.

You said you would not code it!

Its the wooliness of this that gets to me.
If there was a regulation that said NO. great, I know where I stand, and will advise accordingly.

It would be very easy to just walk away from these issues, and say can't be done.
But I like to help people out.

 

[EFLImpudence]

It's just like light switches - NO manufacturer is going to say the product IS suitable for a bathroom (unless it is a specific product) - because they don't need to.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

the delivery /installation people refused to install (They would not even put them in the same room, still in the packaging, as its illegal!)

This problem, and variations of it, happen all the time and the root cause is retailers employing/contracting people to do things outwith their competence, and then deciding it would be a good idea to provide the inadequate services provided by the incompetent employees/contractors to their customers.

The customer has a number of options, ranging from not putting the appliances where they want, through paying someone else to install them (even if they have already paid the retailer) to rejecting the goods and going elsewhere.

 

[JohnW2]

Unless the manufacturer states it is suitable for that environment, then it isn't. Only they know what materials they've used.

The problem there is that MIs aren't, and cannot be, exhaustive, so I don't think one can necessarily take silence about a matter to indicate 'unsuitability'. Given that, as you say, only the manufacturer can know about materials, constructional techniques etc., one might argue that it would be more reasonable to assume that if they regarded it as unsuitable for any particular environment, they should/would say so explicitly.

I suspect that you might even have trouble finding standard accessories (including pull switches for lights and showers), the MIs of which said explicitly that they were suitable for use in bathrooms (or saunas, or outhouses), and I definitely doubt that you would find cables whose MIs said that they were suitable for use in such locations.

Kind Regards, John