Water under floorboards.. best course of action??

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Hello all, quite a long post but I thought I'd include all information I have at this point so you can best advise me.

I'm in a bit of a pickle with my house and any advice would be greatly appreciated. I have a small mid-terrace Victorian house with suspended wooden floors. I rented it out for the first year of owning it, since moving in a few weeks ago I noticed a really damp smell and that the humidity was high - in most rooms it's about 70% with the windows ajar - opening them fully lowers it to about 66%, which is still way too high for the fabric of the house and for my health.

Fast forward and I've removed the carpet and damp underlay and seen the floorboards are damp. I removed some boards and looked into the crawl space to see standing water a couple of inches deep in two areas, totalling about a third of the room. Obviously this water is evaporating up into the room through the floorboards. Other things I noticed were that the joists were more or less dry, as well as the underside of the floorboards (this seemed strange but would suggest the air bricks are doing their job).

First thing I did was fully clear the partially blocked air bricks. I then scooped out half a bucket of water from one of the areas until it was very shallow, after this I put the heating on and all the taps, flushed the loo etc. and observed, nothing happened. Being Manchester it wasn't long before it rained - pretty heavily, and when I looked through the hole a few hours later I saw the ground now had LOTS more water on it. The relative humidity in this room is now about 75% with the window ajar (there is no longer carpet and underlay on the floorboards).

So cause-wise I'm thinking it's either a faulty drain, or rainwater - either due to the water table or seepage from somewhere? I am speaking to my insurance and will look into getting the water tested and drains checked.
Best case scenario is it's a faulty drain which can be fixed, and the problem goes away. More likely, the drain survey will show all is fine and I need to combat the natural water, for which I will have a few options, and really this is where I need advice:

1. concrete (probably self-levelling) the crawl space. Am I right in thinking the water will not get through the concrete? Where will it go, will it just move around underneath the concrete looking for its way out (probably the neighbours?). I believe this is expensive... does anyone know approx cost per m2?

2. install a sump pump. While this will drain water away, I can't imagine it gets rid of all the water - and while this is the case I am worried the problem of it evaporating into the house won't go away. Also I might need another sump pump for the living room to the rear of the house which I haven't looked under yet (or will one suffice for the whole floor?). These don't look too difficult to install myself, though I expect I would need a plumber for checking it over/helping divert the pipe to the rear yard drain.

3. put a DPM sheet down. This would stop most of the water evaporating straight up, I think, but the question is would it just go to the edges and come up there? One idea is if I laid gravel down on the DPM around the edges of the room, but did not 'seal' it down at the front of the house where the air three bricks are, the moisture would find its way to this point and rise up and (possibly?) vent out of the air bricks - much like a bathroom window. Is this likely at all? The incoming air from the air bricks would still circulate above the DPM and do its job of convecting moisture off the woodwork.

I will update when I have more information about the water table, after I've had any drain inspections done and generally have more of an idea of the root cause of this. I have drawn a little diagram looking from the hallway side of the room so the issue is clear. Also there is one picture of the lovely, 'inviting' crawlspace showing a bit of water (what I originally saw before it'd rained). Note, there is more water to the right of that in the picture.

Your experience, expertise and any advice on my 3 potential solutions would be very warmly appreciated.
 
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Going off your current DIY and building experience, I strongly suggest you get a damp porrfer in to look at this.

Oh.. it's going to be expesive also.
 
So cause-wise I'm thinking it's either a faulty drain, or rainwater - either due to the water table or seepage from somewhere? I am speaking to my insurance and will look into getting the water tested and drains checked.
If it's a drain, you'd smell it in all probability unless it's a rainwater run-off. More likely to be a leaking water pipe or a leaking downpipe from the roof (is there any evidence of this?) although I have seen water being pushed up out of old mine workings before now (I'm from the area, so I know that it can happen especially in places like Agecroft)

1. concrete (probably self-levelling) the crawl space. Am I right in thinking the water will not get through the concrete?
That's a new one on me - as far as I know concrete isn't self-levelling......
Concrete isn't impervious - water can come through it unless you seal it with something like tanking slurry or bitumimnious resin

2. install a sump pump. While this will drain water away, I can't imagine it gets rid of all the water
It does pretty well, although it does need a concrete-lined sump to be dug and made for it. This is a common solution on a lot of commercial basement conversions I've worked on in the North West (e.g. restaurants, bars, kitchens, etc). One pump will normally do a whole floor - it's a matter of sizing it correctly

I think you need to determine whether or not there is a broken supply pipe running beneath your property, or if this is ground water being pushed up because the water table is so high. Ome trick there is to dig two or three holes in the garden and cover then with a board. Within a day or so if the water table is high these holes will fill to tha same level, even if it isn't raining (providing it's not freezing like tonight)
 
Agree with the others that finding where the water is coming from is the first step. Only then can you think about a solution. Otherwise you could spend a lot of money which could have been saved by fixing a leaking pipe.
Where I lived when I was a kid in the Midlands, the water table was so high that any hole dug would rapidly fill with water. Probably for that reason the space under the floorboards of our 30s council house was very shallow!

Just looking at the BBC weather for Manchester. Outside humidity is running at around 90% + there, and seems to be at that normally for the next few days. So opening the windows is going to let that in.
 
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Just looking at the BBC weather for Manchester. Outside humidity is running at around 90% + there, and seems to be at that normally for the next few days. So opening the windows is going to let that in.
Dave, it's always like that up here - that's why it's called the Rainy City! Two things guaranteed to grow up here - black mould and rust! :LOL:
 
have you got a water meter?

Does the ground (or any paving) slope towards your house, or away from it?

You can probably get the water co to test the water, they can tell if it is from drains (soapy) or pipes (chlorinated) or groundwater (muddy).
 
Just looking at the BBC weather for Manchester. Outside humidity is running at around 90% + there, and seems to be at that normally for the next few days. So opening the windows is going to let that in.
Dave, it's always like that up here - that's why it's called the Rainy City! Two things guaranteed to grow up here - black mould and rust! :LOL:
Tell me about it! Cornwall is similar rain wise, just a bit warmer! Not too bad for humidity at the moment as it's frosty, but generally it's high. Incidentally I wasn't saying that was causing the water under the floor, just the high relative humidity! :)
 
Thanks for the responses guys.

JobAndKnock - the leaky downpipe was repaired a month ago, I'm pretty sure it's sound - above ground at least. Regarding the self-levelling concrete I think I made an error, it seems the self-levelling stuff is a compound which normally goes on top of the concrete :)

JohnD - I don't have a water meter. The ground slopes slightly away from the house. Actually, the crawl space at that end is pretty dry - though the mud/debris at that end is at a higher level than where the water is pooling.

Slight good news is the water company are coming out tomorrow, but as they've made clear it's not their responsibility I'm not hoping for much. Will see if I can get a water analysis done at least. They must have experience of this issue given the area I'm in.

A drains company has quoted me £150 + VAT to do a drain survey, colour testing and 'drain location'. Sounds pretty reasonable? I will not hold my breath that my insurance will pay for this (they didn't call me back today so I will call them tomorrow).

So I agree that I need to know the source of the water first of all. Typically I am thinking and worrying ahead, difficult not to do when you're faced with this kind of problem and are on a very tight budget.

I'd heard Manchester was damp.. I didn't realise it'd be this bad! The place looks permanently sodden, and you can really feel the high humidity in the air. Any my washing never seems to dry on the line :(
 
if it is associated with rainfall, and the ground slopes away from your house, it may well be a broken rainwater gulley. Older houses have these in salt-glazed clay (brown earthenware) which IME are always broken at the bend. It is wearisome, but not a complicated DIY job, to dig it out until you reach sound pipework, and renew in plastic.

If you or your neighbour has such a gulley, see if the ground around it is particularly wet, or if you can find any red worms, which like broken drains.

If the concrete around a drain has been patched and filled, it is usually to cover up the hole made when a broken drain washes away the soil beneath.
 
The insurance firm sent out a drains company. They checked the rear drain from the sewage pipe out to the rear lane, all was fine. They wouldn't check the front - they said the front downpipe leading to the main drain is the responsibility of United Utilities (?) and that they'll put that in their report. So they said UU should come out to inspect that...

So I'm still waiting really. The guys that came out said there are no drains pipes under the house as such.

The other issue I need advice on is my wooden floors, they are permanently wet. Strange thing is, the undersides are quite dry! So is this moisture coming from below or from elsewhere? From inspecting the room I can't see where else it's coming from.

For the floor I want, I would like to rip up the old boards, put in sheeps wool between the joists, lay chipboard and then reclaimed wood on top (the original boards will be knackered after pulling them up). But obviously I don't want to do this until I am certain the new floor I'll have laid won't get wet again. One idea would be a vapour barrier or DPM suspended underneath the joists (not touching). It'd stop a lot of moisture going up into the floor and the air bricks would still be able to ventilate above the DPM.

Also one adventurous option would be to put the sheep's wool under the joints from in the crawl space, would be a pretty grim job but I'd be prepared to do it as I'd save on lots of chipboard and reclaimed flooring! The main thing is that I ensure there won't be loads of moisture going up into the floor...

Any thoughts?
 
chipboard is a terrible material. If it gets damp, it swells up and loses its strength. It will not hold nails if you try to nail boards to it.

But if you are putting floorboards down, you don't need either.

If you pack sheep or mineral wool between the joists while the floor is up (use stapled garden netting to prevent it flopping down) it will blot out draughts, which are the main source of cold from floors. Pay especial attention to gaps at the edges of the room. Remove all underfloor rubbish and clean out all airbricks. An airbrick every two metres is not too many.

Moths don't eat mineral wool.
 
Okay. Thanks!

So if I don't put down chipboard in case it gets damp, could said moisture then migrate through the sheep's wool and into the floorboards?

What do you think about my DPM / vapour barrier idea just below the joists?

And any idea as to how the boards can be fairly dry underneath but wet on top? I've had the dehumidifier on all night to see if they dried and stayed dry, they didn't.
 
I don't know. Possibly it is condensation from warm damp air in the room meeting the cold floorboards. Tape some clear plastic tightly to the floor and see if condensation forms on the upper surface.

You have an unusual experience. Usually, the subfloor can be kept reasonably cold and dry by good ventilation through airbricks at both sides of the house, so a DPM would not be appropriate.
 

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