We need to talk about Kevin, sorry, I mean ban-all-sheds

[skotl]

With apologies to Lionel Shriver, we can't keep burying our heads in the sand when it comes to ban-all-sheds ("bas").
Another thread was deleted, partly I'm sure, due to personal insults directed to bas by me.

Can we please have a grown up conversation about bas' contribution to this sub-forum?

I can be objective and, as long as the mods contribute, I'm happy to bow to the collective will of the majority on here.

On balance, I do not believe that bas is a positive influence within the Electrics UK sub-forum. I don't believe that his intention is to help address posters' questions, nor do I believe that he holds the interest of the OP or the membership at large in any regard.

Over the eight years that I have been a member of diynot I have received an enormous amount of help from members in various sub-fora but, within Electrics UK, it has been a constant battle.
bas really personifies this sub-forum - what he agrees with, goes, and what he disagrees with is beaten into submission. This either happens directly because he makes the OP go away, or through attrition because everyone else just gives up when faced with the misery of multi-quote after multi-quote.

My projected position is that the Electrics UK forum is effectively ruled by bas, and that is unhealthy. From a diynot perspective (and I stand to be corrected) I don't think that a single member has this much of a stranglehold on any other sub-forum...?

To the crux of my post;

1. I'd like to understand other members' positions on bas' input, ideally with a black-or-white view on whether he helps or hinders the Electrics UK community
2. I'd like to see the moderators' view on where bas fits into this, probably based on the answers to #1

It would be easy to see this as a personal attack, and therefore a straight-to-deletion thread but as my topic title suggests; we have an elephant in the room.
bas has been allowed to grow into the unofficial arbiter of what we are allowed to discuss on here, and that's not fair on the OPs nor on the prolific posters (many of whom have far more experience, and are far more helpful than bas).

This is a debate that needs to happen. If it's quashed then my tiny voice, along with many, many OPs with two posts, will give up and move elsewhere.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

While I've not always agreed with b-a-s, his heart has always been in the right place and his advice (when he deigns to offer it) tends to be correct.

 

[skotl]

Really? Your selective quoting is your defense?

BAS; my position is that this sub-forum would get along better without you. Feel free to weigh in with a counter-argument.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I disagree.

I would go as far as to say there seems to be a certain number of members whose aim is to nit-pick anything Bas says whether justified or not which prolongs the very thing you find annoying.

He does not argue on his own.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Really? Your selective quoting is your defense?

Selective? What should I have quoted? All of post #3382179? Every one of your 815 posts? Is there something wrong with being selective?

Anyway - I was just struck by the apparent contradiction between "his heart has always been in the right place" and "I don't believe that his intention is to help address posters' questions, nor do I believe that he holds the interest of the OP or the membership at large in any regard."

BAS; my position is that this sub-forum would get along better without you. Feel free to weigh in with a counter-argument.

It is difficult to change by reasoning positions not arrived at by that method in the first place.

You're wrong in everything you said above. I'm sure you believe what you said, but you are mistaken. They are your opinions, and they are not rooted in facts.

Quoting? A good way to ensure that people know which person, and which posts, and which points are being responded to.

OPs going away? Do you have the figures for the entire site of the number of people who come here with one question to ask about, and don't come back?

"stranglehold"? "unofficial arbiter of what we are allowed to discuss on here"? How do I do that, then? Can I lock topics? Can I delete posts? Can I ban or suspend people? Can I selectively bar them from posting in particular threads?

 

[endecotp]

Haven't you all found the "ignore" button yet?

 

[JohnW2]

I disagree. I would go as far as to say there seems to be a certain number of members whose aim is to nit-pick anything Bas says whether justified or not which prolongs the very thing you find annoying.

That may well be true in some cases, but what is also true is that it is extremely common that he 'starts it', and then ....

He does not argue on his own.

... Indeed, but one thing about him is that, once he has 'engaged someone', he is absolutely brilliant at using every trick in the book, psychological and otherwise, in attempts to keep them engaged (rather than letting them just 'walk away'), unless/until he gets 'the last word' - and even if they do appear to have 'walked away', he will often continue trying to provoke them into responding. No matter these exchanges start, it is therefore very often primarily because of his persistence, stubbornness or whatever you want to call it if/when the exchanges become protracted, tedious, and often unpleasant and/or 'silly'.

More generally, the one thing said by skotl that I would disagree with is that, even if he perhaps might like to think so, I do not think that BAS is in any way a unique phenomenon. It may not happen in other DIYnot sub-forums (of which I have very little experience), but in the wider world of on-line discussion forums/fora in general, IME a good few of them have their "BAS" (I've been involved in such discussion groups since about a decade before "the Internet" was born!) - albeit they rarely retain their access to the forum in question for as long as BAS has managed here.

BAS is a very intelligent person with lots of knowledge that he can (when he wants to) usefully share, and "his heart is in the right place" in many senses, with very strong, sincere and passionate views about many things, certainly not only in relation to electrical DIY.

When I first encountered BAS, ~5 years ago, I 'recognised him' well from many others I had encountered 'electronically', but at that time I had no doubt that his positive value to the forum more than outweighed the negative aspects of his participation. However, and sadly, during the ensuing 5 years I have seen that pattern progressively change, to the extent that I am now far from convinced that he is a net asset to the forum. Even though he obviously still has the ability to give good and helpful advice, the proportion of his posts which represent useful (electrical) answers to OPs' electrical questions has fallen to a disappointingly low level, even though his posting remains prolific.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Haven't you all found the "ignore" button yet?

Human nature! A few might press that button, but most could just not bring themselves to do it, any more than they would/could (if it were possible) programme their TV to switch off whenever any disturbing/unpleasant items were being broadcast in the News! There are some things that we don't really like reading/hearing/seeing/whatever, but we'd like even less not knowing what was going on around us!

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

I compare BAS to a demonic school teacher.

Instead of encouraging the pupils to develop a desire to acquire knowledge the demonic teacher attempts to force them to learn by telling them to read the text books.

Many of the people who come to DIYnot with a question are lacking both knowledge and awareness of the extent of the knowledge they are lacking.

A good teacher will encourage them to learn by explaining why their limited ( or totally lack of ) knowledge has to be replaced with the basic knowledge needed for the task they have asked questions about.

If they have not yet started the task then one can be strict ( but not demonic ) about ensuring they seek out the necessary knowledge before starting the task.

If they have started and are in difficulty then the help they need should be provided first to get them out of trouble and then they are far more likely to accept the education they need should they ever repeat the task.

I think BAS could be an asset to the forum with the knowledge he appears to have but he cannot be an asset until he learns to be a better educator.

 

[jj4091]

I compare BAS to a demonic school teacher.

Instead of encouraging the pupils to develop a desire to acquire knowledge the demonic teacher attempts to force them to learn by telling them to read the text books.

Many of the people who come to DIYnot with a question are lacking both knowledge and awareness of the extent of the knowledge they are lacking.

A good teacher will encourage them to learn by explaining why their limited ( or totally lack of ) knowledge has to be replaced with the basic knowledge needed for the task they have asked questions about.

If they have not yet started the task then one can be strict ( but not demonic ) about ensuring they seek out the necessary knowledge before starting the task.

If they have started and are in difficulty then the help they need should be provided first to get them out of trouble and then they are far more likely to accept the education they need should they ever repeat the task.

I think BAS could be an asset to the forum with the knowledge he appears to have but he cannot be an asset until he learns to be a better educator.

I'm sorry Bernard, but this is after all a forum not the Times educational supplement, I think he actually does better than a lot of people in so far as trying to ensure that people carry out their projects safely. I thought we all lived in a democracy with the freedom of speech that entails so trying to get someone banned is heading towards a slippery slope as far as I am concerned. Another poster recommended the ignore button & I have actually used it on him as I found his reply offensive, but funnily I have never felt the need to use it with B.A.S.

 

[bernardgreen]

Democracy means that people cannot be forced to follow the advice offered on this forum. Hence the information needs to be presented in a way that encourages the person to read and act of the advice given in the forum.

There is no such equivalent "democracy" in a school. The pupils have to attend and they have to do what the teacher instructs them to do hence the demonic teachers do get some knowledge into the pupils but not as much as when the pupils want to learn.

There are two basic types of question.
[1] What do I need to know before I start the task ?
[2] How do I rescue myself ( and family ) from the situation I have created ?

BAS is ideal for answering type [1] but he seems to lack the empathy / sympathy necessary to be able to answer the type [2] questions in a way that will encourage the person to reamin in contact and then follow the advice needed for the recovery process.

 

[DaveHerns]

He's a bit like Marmite....

 

[Simon35]

"With apologies to Lionel Shriver, we can't keep burying our heads in the sand when it comes to ban-all-sheds ("bas").".....It's just an internet forum skotl, I'm fairly sure I haven't given BAS a second thought when I'm not whiling away a bit of time on here, no offence BAS.

His advice is generally sound, and if it's presented in a way that maybe upsets some people, then maybe they should realise that it's just an internet forum, not real life...

 

[JohnW2]

His advice is generally sound, and if it's presented in a way that maybe upsets some people, then maybe they should realise that it's just an internet forum, not real life...

All true. However, what I think frustrates many of us (certainly myself), knowing the sincere and well-intentioned objectives he clearly has, is that the approach/style/methods he adopts are, I feel sure, very often counter-productive in terms of his own objectives - which is a pity, for everyone concerned.

Kind Regards, John

 

[jj4091]

Democracy means that people cannot be forced to follow the advice offered on this forum. Hence the information needs to be presented in a way that encourages the person to read and act of the advice given in the forum.

There is no such equivalent "democracy" in a school. The pupils have to attend and they have to do what the teacher instructs them to do hence the demonic teachers do get some knowledge into the pupils but not as much as when the pupils want to learn.

There are two basic types of question.
[1] What do I need to know before I start the task ?
[2] How do I rescue myself ( and family ) from the situation I have created ?

BAS is ideal for answering type [1] but he seems to lack the empathy / sympathy necessary to be able to answer the type [2] questions in a way that will encourage the person to reamin in contact and then follow the advice needed for the recovery process.

How can he possibly answer questions like that until they are asked, his reponses to problems are sometimes linked to the information required to solve problems, but I often do that myself rather than type out long winded explanations. I'm not sure how one could present information in a persuasive manner on a forum when it is factual.