Wiring downlights from a ceiling rose

[mikegm70]

Hi, I wonder if anyone can help please.

I have an existing ceiling rose and have created a new dropped ceiling.

I am installing 4 downlights and have taken a 1.5mm T & E from each light to a junction box, and a feed from the ceiling rose to the junction box.

The questions I'd appreciate some guidance on are:

1. I have left the junction box completely accessible but whilst I know the lights must not be earthed - do I do connect the earth from the feed from the rose to junction box, whilst leaving the earth from the lights?

2. Whilst the junction box is fully accessible, the ceiling rose will not be accessible after doing the work - is that a problem? Do I need to leave it accessible?

3. The lights I purchased have a dimple driver with a short two core cable coming out, and a spare live and neutral in the terminal block. This short cable appears redundant - can I get rid of it and just run the T & E from the light to the junction box?

For the record they are Aurora downlights.

Thanks for listening

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I am installing 4 downlights

You've gone from having 1 light to having 4. Why didn't you just install 1 downlight to match the number you had before?

and have taken a 1.5mm T & E from each light to a junction box, and a feed from the ceiling rose to the junction box.

What sort of junction box?

1. I have left the junction box completely accessible

Will it always be accessible for inspection and testing in the future?

but whilst I know the lights must not be earthed - do I do connect the earth from the feed from the rose to junction box, whilst leaving the earth from the lights?

Yes - all the earth cores must be properly connected throughout - at the lights you should terminate them in a bit of choc-block.

2. Whilst the junction box is fully accessible, the ceiling rose will not be accessible after doing the work - is that a problem? Do I need to leave it accessible?

Yes and yes.

3. The lights I purchased have a dimple driver with a short two core cable coming out, and a spare live and neutral in the terminal block. This short cable appears redundant - can I get rid of it and just run the T & E from the light to the junction box?

Not sure what you are describing - photos would be useful. If you want to use the site's own photo library provision you'll find the instructions here: //www.diynot.com/network/DIYnot/albums/67/180

To get photo(s) to appear in your post you need to do all 11 steps. Stopping when all you've done is put them in an album won't do.

Or in a fraction of the time it takes to go through that PITA convoluted process you could use an image hosting site such as http://www.postimage.org . Or one of many others (preferably not Photobucket) - I personally like Postimage because of it's screen-scrape tool, which means you don't actually have to go to the site to upload photos.

 

[mikegm70]

//media.diynot.com/230000_229257_94323_69552342_thumb.jpg

//media.diynot.com/230000_229257_94324_81483198_thumb.jpg

Hi, thanks for your help.

In answer to your queries:

The junction box is a basic round black unit with the posts inside, and this will be left at high level in a cupboard.

The word dimmable came out as 'dimple' for some reason? The images above show this, and whilst we purchased dimmable, we are not connecting them to a dimmer switch (it was all that was in stock!) so I'm asking can the black lead be removed?

Thanks Mike

 

[Simon35]

//media.diynot.com/230000_229257_94323_69552342_thumb.jpg

//media.diynot.com/230000_229257_94324_81483198_thumb.jpg

Hi, thanks for your help.

In answer to your queries:

The junction box is a basic round black unit with the posts inside, and this will be left at high level in a cupboard.

The word dimmable came out as 'dimple' for some reason? The images above show this, and whilst we purchased dimmable, we are not connecting them to a dimmer switch (it was all that was in stock!) so I'm asking can the black lead be removed?

Thanks Mike

You need to replace the ceiling rose with a MF junction box. Using a ceiling rose as a JB is bit rough anyway.

I would remove the black cable and run your new T+E under the clamp so its held properly, then loop your sleeved earth core back out of the transformer and into a bit of chock block.

Of course, now the ceiling's up, that's all the more difficult...

 

[ban-all-sheds]

//media.diynot.com/230000_229257_94323_69552342_thumb.jpg

//media.diynot.com/230000_229257_94324_81483198_thumb.jpg[/QUOTE]
You didn't do Step 10, did you....

asking can the black lead be removed?

The photos are very small - that is the supply cable, i.e. not the one you're supposed to connect to the light?

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Hi, I wonder if anyone can help please.

I have an existing ceiling rose and have created a new dropped ceiling.

I am installing 4 downlights and have taken a 1.5mm T & E from each light to a junction box, and a feed from the ceiling rose to the junction box.

The questions I'd appreciate some guidance on are:

1. I have left the junction box completely accessible but whilst I know the lights must not be earthed - do I do connect the earth from the feed from the rose to junction box, whilst leaving the earth from the lights?

BS7671 (wiring regs) expect a CPC (AKA earth) to be present at all accessories, so if it is possible to have a CPC not at only at the junction but also at the accessories this would be desired. The CPC does not require to be terminated at the accessories (if not required according to manufacture), but can be terminated a a separate connector block not connected to the fitting. This becomes helpful, if in the future you install lights that do require a CPC and is very helpful when you go through the commissioning procedures involved in testing the circuit.

2. Whilst the junction box is fully accessible, the ceiling rose will not be accessible after doing the work - is that a problem? Do I need to leave it accessible?

All joints/junction must be accessible for maintenance, inspection and testing. The requirements of BS7671 do allow however for joints to be made in inaccessible locations but this must be by a maintenance free method. The easiest way for a DIYer to comply to these requirements would be by using a maintenance free junction box. Hager/Ashley make the most common ones of this type.

3. The lights I purchased have a dimple driver with a short two core cable coming out, and a spare live and neutral in the terminal block. This short cable appears redundant - can I get rid of it and just run the T & E from the light to the junction box?

Generally the pre-wired units are best left as they are, some are moulded and do not even allow the cables to be removed.
Do you know which cables/flexes are on primary and secondary side.
The cable/flex on secondary side, would ideally have heat resistant properties.

Dimable Tranys, will require dimable lamps.

For the record they are Aurora downlights.

Generally a good product.

 

[mikegm70]

Ban/Simon/Prentice,

Thanks all for the very helpful replies.

First of Simon, the ceiling is not completely up, I have an opening around the existing rose, so I'll change that to a MF box tonight - being finished & plastered tomorrow!

With regard to the MF box, I just had a look online, what one is best to replace a rose, it just it seems as though most only have a small number of connectors?

 

[Simon35]

Ban/Simon/Prentice,

Thanks all for the very helpful replies.

First of Simon, the ceiling is not completely up, I have an opening around the existing rose, so I'll change that to a MF box tonight - being finished & plastered tomorrow!

With regard to the MF box, I just had a look online, what one is best to replace a rose, it just it seems as though most only have a small number of connectors?

Ashley/Hager...depends how many cables/conductors/connections you have at the ceiling rose, which depends on how your lighting is wired.

Maybe its looped at the ceiling roses, so loop in/loop out/switch and cable to lampholder (in your case cable to cupboard JB).

Post a photo of the ceiling rose terminations if you can't work it out.

Something like this may do the job http://www.discount-electrical.com/...nction-boxes-c145/hager-20a-junction-box-p231

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

With regard to the MF box, I just had a look online, what one is best to replace a rose, it just it seems as though most only have a small number of connectors?

http://www.hager.co.uk/product-cata...n-box/maintenance-free-junction-box/38674.htm

The above link is the product you are after, you will not find these in DIY sheds or screwfix/toolstaion.
You are best calling a local electrical wholesaler to find out if they have some in stock.

For lighting it is best to use the 20A J804, they will accommodate enough spaces for a normal ceiling rose configuration. 4 terminals for each of the conductors (live loopx4, neutralx4, CPCx4, switch linex4), so should be ample terminals.

Another useful connector (not MF though) Is the click flow for accessible connection around the fitting hole, this will allow you to unplug the transformer and lamp from the power source, if maintenance is required.
You can also do some pre-assembly of the connection, without having to be on ladders/working platform.
http://www.downlights.co.uk/accessories/ct101c.html

Please be aware the the Ashley J501 16 Amp Downlighter Junction Box, is not a MF junction box and can only be used in an accessible locations.

 

[mikegm70]

Problem solved!

Got a Hager MF box located at a local wholesalers, so will pick up later and connect tonight!

Thanks once again

 

[Taylortwocities]

Problem solved!

Got a Hager MF box located at a local wholesalers, so will pick up later and connect tonight!

I always smile when folk start rewiring lighting circuits at night time!

 

[mikegm70]

Thanks Taylor!

Luckily I had a lot more constructive input from elsewhere

Thank goodness for summer nights....

 

[mikegm70]

simon/Prentice, got box - don't want to mess it up now....

Am I putting light in and out on circuit one side of box, and switch and lamp holder other side?

what terminals does the switch live/live go into??

 

[JohnW2]

simon/Prentice, got box - don't want to mess it up now.... Am I putting light in and out on circuit one side of box, and switch and lamp holder other side?

Electrically, it doesn't matter which cable goes on which side - but what you describe is likely to be the most convenient arrangement.

what terminals does the switch live/live go into??

Hopefully you got a J804, with four sets of terminals (rather than J803, with only three sets). If so, the permanent live can go into the terminals labelled L1 and the switched lives into the L2 ones (or vice versa, but permanent L into L1 is probably more conventional).

Kind Regards, John

 

[mikegm70]

thanks John, yes I have the 804, that's great.