wiring for CH

Joined
21 Aug 2009
Messages
41
Reaction score
0
Location
Derbyshire
Country
United Kingdom
Anyone got any ideas? this is a bit lengthy - sorry!

Trying to wire up the controls for UFH, boiler, cylinder etc.etc.
got Worcester Bosch Greenstar condensing system 30cdi - am getting a bit confused with what goes where - in relation to the programmer, which I was advised in an earlier post last week to dump - the Delta 23b - not sure if I am almost home or totally off target!

Searched lots of threads on this site, but still not sure on a couple of things.

The boiler has built in "pump over run" and I have been told ( by WB technical help ) to provide a switched live to "Lr" on the control panel. In the WB instruction manual it also shows live to Ls and neutral to Ns - do these all come via the wiring junction box? and what happens to the earth?
At the beginning of the manual it says there "must be a fused double pole isolater situated adjacent to the appliance" . There is a spur for the boiler already - in the cupboard next to it - which has so far provided the feed. But now I want all the controls to operate the system, how can i do that if the feeds now come from External controls wiring box from the airing cupboard.
Do i ignore this aspect? Confused!

Have been on to Honeywell site and looks as though I am wiring up an S plan plus. But the wiring on there is not what i have worked out.

Needing advice on whether what i have in mind is the right way.
Will post a layout of what i think I need to do in a minute.

New to the heating jargon here as well so plain English would be great.
 
Sponsored Links
Controls are in order from the WB boiler:

1. External circulating pump ( to run system before any other controls )
2. Heating to Ground Floor:
-1 x 2 port honeywell zone valve (ref. to later as 'a' ),
-followed by 3 port mid-position valve,
-then another heating circulating pump to UFH 9 port manifold
-pipe sensor on return pipework from lower manifold (and before the return link with mid position valve)

3. Heating 1st Floor:
-1 x 2 port honeywell zone valve ( ref. to later as 'b' ) no further controls to 4 -port manifold.

4. Ariston unvented Sti indirect cylinder
- 1 x 2-port Drayton ZA5 zone valve,
- built in cylinder stat and emersion.
- pipe sensor on hot water pipe from cylinder (?).

5. Room stats - 1 on each floor ( not connected )
- hardwired to cylinder cupboard with 3-core + earth

Programmer - Delta 23b - have located a wiring diagram on the cover to it, but it is in German! and the wiring on the Ippec page is for a different programmer - too many terminals compared to the one I have! Will come back to that if the following are good.

Wiring so far as follows to wiring box - not on to programmer yet!

CH 2 port zone valve 'a'
Gr - 1
Bl - 2
G/Y - 3
Br - 5
O - 10

CH 2 port valve 'b'
Gr - 1
Bl - 2
G/y - 3
Br - 7
O - 10


HW 2 port valve

Gr - 1
Bl - 2
G/y - 3
Br - 8
O - 10


Room Stat

1 - 4
2 - 2
3 - 5

Cylinder Stat

1 - 6
2 not used
C - 8

CH Pump

N - 2
L - 10
E - 3

UFH Pump - the same as above?

Boiler - not sure -I think this may be wrong - 'pump over' link taken out at boiler ?
On ST10 on 30cdi
Ns - 2
Ls - 1
Lr - 10


Any advice much appreciated.
 
I am swopping you questions about so they are more logical ;)

At the beginning of the manual it says there "must be a fused double pole isolater situated adjacent to the appliance" . There is a spur for the boiler already - in the cupboard next to it - which has so far provided the feed.
Thats correct. The boiler needs a permanent supply, which can come from the adjacent spur. The reason for this is the boiler needs to be able to control the internal pump over run, which means the pump carries on running for a few minutes after the boiler goes out.

The main connections are made to the L, N and E terminals.


I have been told ( by WB technical help ) to provide a switched live to "Lr" on the control panel. In the WB instruction manual it also shows live to Ls and neutral to Ns - do these all come via the wiring junction box? and what happens to the earth?
Ls and Ns are the supply to the wiring junction box. If the junction box needs a earth it can come from the earth terminal of the boiler or any suitable earth terminal.

Lr is the terminal which turns the boiler ON/OFF

But now I want all the controls to operate the system, how can i do that if the feeds now come from External controls wiring box from the airing cupboard.
Do you mean that the boiler and wiring box have separate supplies? If so, and they are both fed from the same spur, that's OK. YOu do not need the connections to Ls and Ns. YOu still need the connection to Lr, or the boiler will never run.

Have been on to Honeywell site and looks as though I am wiring up an S plan plus. But the wiring on there is not what i have worked out.
It is an S plan but the underfloor version, which is a bit different.
 
I don't understand your next post. Can you do a diagram showing the main components and how they are connected together - just up to the manifolds?

What do the numbers mean?

e.g.

CH 2 port zone valve 'a'
Gr - 1
Bl - 2
G/Y - 3
Br - 5
O - 10

Not surprised the instructions are in German. THe unit is made by Elektronikbau- und Vertriebs-GmbH in Germany

Can you post a pic of the wiring instruction on the Delta 23b?
 
Sponsored Links
thanks for your help

I just need a few minutes to work through my answer and try to get a drawing uploaded.
 
"Do you mean that the boiler and wiring box have separate supplies? If so, and they are both fed from the same spur, that's OK. YOu do not need the connections to Ls and Ns. YOu still need the connection to Lr, or the boiler will never run."

No the boiler is currently served by one separate spur, and the controls are all manually worked from another spur.



"What do the numbers mean?"

Sorry -I am referring to the 10 outlet terminal connectors in the wiring centre - actually it has 16 but I have only worked out the controls for 1 - 10.

Starting from 1 = L , 2 = N, 3 = E, No's 4 -10 are the other terminal connections between the controls in the wiring centre

"It is an S plan but the underfloor version, which is a bit different."

I haven't seen the wiring diagram for that - does this change everything now?

I don't know how to get a diagram of the Delta 23b onto here - can try a photo what is on the cover of the enclosure - or what they originally sent for installation . The "project file". Give me 5 mins.

I forgot to add on the controls - there is a mid position valve - which, looking at the installation documents I think should have been a "4 -way mixer port with servo motor" I think the guys installing the system way back couldn't understand the German and decide the mid position would do the same job. I wouldn't know - they never wired it up! I do still have the 4-way, if it needs to be changed!! I will try and get a layout uploaded too.

thanks so far [/b]
 
D_Hailsham

I have uploaded some images - don't know how to get them onto this post but they are in my images. Hope they make sense
 
Wiring for CH?
Just to show you how the professionals do it Debzo.



debzo.gif


debzo2.gif
 
No the boiler is currently served by one separate spur, and the controls are all manually worked from another spur.
there should be only one fused spur feeding all of the heating and hot water controls/components (except the immersion heater).
Had a look at the pics, dont do German so dont know the prog bit.
I think you may need to get someone who knows what they are doing to sort your system out
 
the boiler is currently served by one separate spur, and the controls are all manually worked from another spur.
Having two different supplies is not recommended as it is easy to forget to turn both off when working on the boiler - OUCH


I am referring to the 10 outlet terminal connectors in the wiring centre - actually it has 16 but I have only worked out the controls for 1 - 10.
I take it you are not talking about the IPPEC Pexatherm WG200 Delta Enclosure but a bog standard wiring centre, e.g Drayton or Honeywell.

Starting from 1 = L , 2 = N, 3 = E, No's 4 -10 are the other terminal connections between the controls in the wiring centre
Got that. You say the wiring centre is fed from a separate spur but you also say:

On ST10 on 30cdi
Ns - 2
Ls - 1
Lr - 10


That means the wiring centre is getting supplied from two places: 1. the spur; 2. Ns and Ls. You don't need both.

"It is an S plan but the underfloor version, which is a bit different."

I haven't seen the wiring diagram for that - does this change everything now?
Well a radiator S Plan does have mixer valves or actuators, multiple pumps etc.. The only common factor is that heating and hot water are controlled by separate zone valves.

I don't know how to get a diagram of the Delta 23b onto here - can try a photo what is on the cover of the enclosure - or what they originally sent for installation . The "project file". Give me 5 mins.
Thanks for the pics. Google Translator is very helpful!

I forgot to add on the controls - there is a mid position valve - which, looking at the installation documents I think should have been a "4 -way mixer port with servo motor" I think the guys installing the system way back couldn't understand the German and decide the mid position would do the same job. I wouldn't know - they never wired it up! I do still have the 4-way, if it needs to be changed!! I will try and get a layout uploaded too.
Three way mixers are not the same as 4 -way. If the spec says 4-way, that's what is required.

If you can upload info from the original installation docs it would be helpful. If you know any one with a scanner you can get them on to your pc that way ans then put them in your images (probably easier to keep them there rather than insert them in your posts).

Am I right in thinking that the system was installed first using standard controls and then been "upgraded" to the Delta controller?

I am also confused about the number of pumps. You mention a circulating pump and one underfloor heating pump. Are these in addition to the pump built into the boiler?
 
D_Hailsham

"I take it you are not talking about the IPPEC Pexatherm WG200 Delta Enclosure but a bog standard wiring centre, e.g Drayton or Honeywell ."

Yes.


"On ST10 on 30cdi
Ns - 2
Ls - 1
Lr - 10

That means the wiring centre is getting supplied from two places: 1. the spur; 2. Ns and Ls. You don't need both. "

O.k - so the wiring as listed here would be correct?

"Well a radiator S Plan does have mixer valves or actuators, multiple pumps etc.. The only common factor is that heating and hot water are controlled by separate zone valves."

So is the wiring different to what i have shown for my system?

"Three way mixers are not the same as 4 -way. If the spec says 4-way, that's what is required. "


they originally specified a 4- port mixer and I bought the system accordingly, but the company then changed the designer and the new guy did away with the 4-port and opted for a 3 port mixer, which I then bought as well! Naturally they didn't re-imburse me for the wrong valve!! should have known then i would have more headaches to come.

"Am I right in thinking that the system was installed first using standard controls and then been "upgraded" to the Delta controller? "

No this was always designed from the start with the Delta - but "temporarily" (ha!) operated by simple timer because no-one could work out how to wire it through.


"I am also confused about the number of pumps. You mention a circulating pump and one underfloor heating pump. Are these in addition to the pump built into the boiler?"


Yes . The boiler was changed from Ideal Classic system boiler last year to WB - the original designer asked for a circulating pump, and dedicated UFH pump, with that boiler, and the WB obviously has its own pump. The floor area on the ground floor is some 160 sq mts and 1st floor - 80 sq mts, and part of the system is over 20 mts away from the boiler. think this may have been behind the thinking for the original designers, but at that stage I understood even less than ever what would be needed - might have had my leg lifted me thinks!!!

Will try and upload original plan to my images.

Thanks
 
O.k - so the wiring as listed here would be correct?
It's your choice! The options are:

1. Spur to boiler; Ls, Ns wiring centre 1 and 2, earth from boiler or elsewhere to wiring centre 3.

OR

2. Spur to boiler and separate spur to wiring centre 1, 2 and 3

So is the wiring different to what i have shown for my system?
Yes This is the wiring of a radiator S Plan Plus (2 heating zones, one hot water zone)

View media item 12265
they originally specified a 4- port mixer and I bought the system accordingly, but the company then changed the designer and the new guy did away with the 4-port and opted for a 3 port mixer, which I then bought as well! Naturally they didn't re-imburse me for the wrong valve!! should have known then i would have more headaches to come.
If the 4 port valve is unused and they changed the design, then they should take the valve back and reimburse you the cost.

No this was always designed from the start with the Delta - but "temporarily" (ha!) operated by simple timer because no-one could work out how to wire it through.
Understood.


The boiler was changed from Ideal Classic system boiler last year to WB - the original designer asked for a circulating pump, and dedicated UFH pump, with that boiler, and the WB obviously has its own pump. The floor area on the ground floor is some 160 sq mts and 1st floor - 80 sq mts, and part of the system is over 20 mts away from the boiler.
This diagram is based on yours and shows the system layout. Can you check it's correct.


The Delta Manual on page 9 has a table listing the terminals on WG10 and the Delta.
The left hand set of numbers are all sensors e.g:
KF = boiler temperature
AF = Outside Temperature
SF = Cylinder Temperature

The right hand terminals are where the valves and pumps etc connect.

Do you have just the Delta controller or do you have the WG100/200 enclosure as well?.
 
Thanks so much for your help, sorry for my late reply - back home late, and only just got onto laptop.

"1. Spur to boiler; Ls, Ns wiring centre 1 and 2, earth from boiler or elsewhere to wiring centre 3 ".


Think I prefer this option so the CH is all turned off via one spur if needed.


"This diagram is based on yours and shows the system layout. Can you check it's correct. "

yes this is correct - and your drawing is so much better than mine!

"The left hand set of numbers are all sensors e.g:
KF = boiler temperature"

Does it matter which way round the wires go ? eg: KF 6L+ 10N or 10L + 6N? -( i am looking at the layout in the cover panel for the Delta as per the image uploaded earlier.)

"The right hand terminals are where the valves and pumps etc connect."

O.k that makes sense - so if these are all coming from the wiring centre is it for example, grey, brown or orange of the HW valve to 12 of the Delta? - or have I gone off on a tangent now? ( think I've blown a fuse in my brain now - but then it is a bit late! )

"If the 4 port valve is unused and they changed the design, then they should take the valve back and reimburse you the cost."

This is only one dissatisfactory aspect - it took nearly 2 years to get to the stage of all the original parts ordered actually being delivered and this is when they had sent it to a different designer, who then changed the port spec! I even tackled the chief honcho at one of the trade shows - very concerned etc. etc., but still not a good outcome for me! Have already bitten the bullet for this, so chose to not deal with them again!


"Do you have just the Delta controller or do you have the WG100/200 enclosure as well?."

! have the WG100 enclosure aswell - hurrumph! No expense spared eh?

:eek: [/quote]

Thanks for your help - i can't tell you have amazing it feels just to get to the point of even getting an understanding of what goes where! The idea I might actually get a fully functional system after so long without is like winning the lottery to me!! :LOL:
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Sponsored Links
Back
Top