Fire alarm charges by Freehold owner

[sb330]

Hello,

Hope this is in the right place.

We have just started renting a ground floor flat with our own entrance, we have recently discovered that the landlord is only the leaseholder.

Last night we set the fire alarm off by cooking, the alarm would not stop even though the lady above has a key to switch it off but the alarm system said fire - there was no fire and not excessive smoke/steam.

The freeholder had to come round and switch it off, he also said he is bringing in a fine if the fire alarms are set off - £30 between 9-5, £40 between 5-12 and after midnight £60.

After reading our contract there is nothing that states extra charges for the fire alarm, the only thing which they could try to suggest is charges for the misuse of the property but cooking is not misuse.

The freeholder also said we should close the door when we have a bath or shower as the steam can set the fire alarm off! This seems ridiculous.

Be grateful if anyone knows of our rights?
Is the freeholder able to get away with this?
Is our landlord liable?

Many thanks.

Sarah

 

[TonyW2]

Nobody, except the legal authorities, can impose fines. If there is nothing in your lease or the landlord's lease from the freeholder, it would take an injunction to order you not to cause a disturbance.

Fire alarms can be triggered by smoke or steam and surely you want the alarm to work. Why not arrange to obtain a method of silencing it on false alarm by discussing with its owner?

 

[JohnD]

you do not have a contract with the freeholder so he has no agreement with you to pay "fines".

the person who does is the leasholder.

So the freeholder can try to charge him, but I doubt it is mentioned in the lease. There might or might not be provision for maintenance, for example of the smoke sensors.

I have had them go off from steam or aerosols, they get worse and are replaced by new.

 

[sb330]

Thanks for your replies.
We just wanted to work out where we stand.

Of course we want the fire alarms to work - that is a given. But they obviously do not work appropriately if they go off when cooking or from having a bath or shower.

So if it is in the lease for the leaseholders (our landlord) they will have to pay but if not they can't charge or try to?

Do you know if it is a fire regulation to have wired in fire alarms which are under control of the freeholder or if we are able to contact the landlord to discuss battery operated alarms which would be much more convenient.

Thanks

 

[OwainDIYer]

The fire alarms are probably not fit for purpose if they false alarm like this.

You should probably have individual alarm circuits within each flat, which activate the communal alarm after a time delay if not cancelled.

EG

http://www.c-tec.co.uk/News/articles/hushpush.html

 

[oasistechnical]

Owain
the system use (i expect) is a BS5839 system not a domestic detector set up!!

because it has to RESET by a person!!!!

so a `hush buttom` would not be of ANY USE !!

Oasis

 

[oasistechnical]

to the OP;

access must be able to be obtained for any person who requires access to the fire detection and control equipment.

in case of false alarms and or testing of system

we have a number of systems out there that are one main panel in a looked area, with multiple users and buildings connected to it, all users have there own keys to the area in which the system control panel is placed

Oasis

 

[sb330]

So we should be able to access the main unit and switch it off if it is set up by 'dust' etc. I was given the limitations and charges list this morning. Not impressed.

There is one lady in the above flat who had a key to disable it but no one else does and the freeholder still has to be called and he comes out and therefore will try and charge.

We can't even get to the main alarm unit as we have our own entrance and the unit is in the communal hallway which everyone else lives in.

Just exasperating. I don't see how he can bring in a new rule suddenly. Also it would be our landlord stuck with the charges as its not in our contract.

 

[OwainDIYer]

Owain
the system use (i expect) is a BS5839 system not a domestic detector set up!!

because it has to RESET by a person!!!!

so a `hush buttom` would not be of ANY USE !!

The hush button linked to IS for a BS5839 system compatible with Hochiki’s ESP and Apollo’s XP95, Discovery and Xplorer protocols

Typically one double gang Hush Button is fitted in each HMO dwelling complete with conventional detectors and sounders to provide occupants with a simple, cost-effective means of invoking two types of ‘hushed’ period, as specified in clause 12.2 of BS 5839 part 6.

Says Andrew Foster, C-TEC’s MD: “Clause 12.2 indicates there be provision within each HMO dwelling for silencing unwanted alarms when there is a local fire alarm condition and for isolating the dwelling’s detectors should activities be taking place that could cause a false alarm.

The purpose of the unit is to stop false alarming the main system. Once the main system does go into full alarm it will need a reset.

 

[OwainDIYer]

Here's a scenario:

The toaster starts smoking and activates the alarm.

You hunt for your keys, run out of your flat, round to the communal entrance, get to the fire alarm panel, key in and work out how to hush/silence the panel.

You then go back to your flat, possibly on the way apologising to the neighbours for the false alarm.

You find that the toaster, which you didn't unplug in your hurry to get to the alarm panel, has gone from smoking to flaming and the kitchen curtains have gone up. This is now A FIRE.

Meanwhile, in the other flats, all the residents are ignoring the alarm because they 'know' it's a false alarm.

 

[cajar]

What about this:

The OP has a steamy bath and sets off the alarm.

At that precise moment, someone in another flat falls asleep with a cigarette in their hand.

The freeholder appears and the OP shouts out the window that she set it off with the bath steam.

The freeholder resets the alarm.

The fire from the cigarette in the other flat rages but everyone ignores it because they know it's a false alarm.


Clearly the only solution is to compel the free holder to carry out a room to room search of every flat before reseting the panel, correct?

 

[joe-90]

What about this:

The OP has a steamy bath and sets off the alarm.

I think we need photos.

 

[mattylad]

What about this:

The OP has a steamy bath and sets off the alarm.

At that precise moment, someone in another flat falls asleep with a cigarette in their hand.

The freeholder appears and the OP shouts out the window that she set it off with the bath steam.

The freeholder resets the alarm.

The fire from the cigarette in the other flat rages but everyone ignores it because they know it's a false alarm.


Clearly the only solution is to compel the free holder to carry out a room to room search of every flat before reseting the panel, correct?

The Freeholder would be able to tell which zone it came from, I would expect each flat etc to be on its own zone. Hence when the freeholder (isnt this a bit late now? by the time he/she arrives the flat will be totally burnt) arrives he/she should investigate what the panel is saying rather than listen to someone shouting out of a window.

What it really needs in the quoted situation is for the person in the bath, upon hearing the alarm and thinking the bath has set it off - to dash round and try and reset it.

It would give everyone else a laugh.

Clearly something is wrong with the OP's overall setup (in that there is too few responsible people that can reset it) and the lack of the charges being specified in any agreement.

Charges make people less hesitant to report things, if the alarm goes off when cooking or using the bathroom then the system needs changing as it should not go off.

 

[bernardgreen]

Your local council buiilding control may be able to advise you, they would ( should ) have been involved when the building was built ( or converted into flats ). also the local fire brigade will almost certainly be willing to advise.

Citizen's advice bureau should be able to give free advice on the legalities of the rental / lease agreements and who is responsible for the costs involved in maintaining the fire alarm system.

If it is a "shared" alarm system then there has to be a responsible person and their costs should really be a fixed up front charge on all tenants as part of a service charge for the general upkeep of the communal areas of the building,

 

[mattylad]

SB330 - what does your contract say>?