how to get rid of my builder

[luisdesign]

Okay, this is good, but it is still a bit awkward to advise properly without knowing the complete ins and outs. (that and there is a reason why people charge to look at these sorts of things in depth...)

The quote. (call it this from now on please)
This is pretty clear in so far as it is laid out clearly defining what the prices have included. You will note that there are some things in there which will allow for variations... for instance he notes that the electrical figure is a "provisional sum". This means that it is subject to change - for one reason or another - and that this is simply an allowance that he has made towards the final figure.

It doesn't look like he has asked for any extras here though.

Things that I do note his quote allows for;

1. constructing an internal block wall. If this is the same wall as you talked about earlier (the one he claimed he only allowed to make out of stud) then he can't return to you saying he did not allow for it as there is a figure there to make a block wall and it is clearly specified.

2. works to a shower room. "as discussed". You need to know what you discussed with him really. Because his extras include works to the shower room. If this work was originally discussed then it should have been quoted for in this figure. If you changed your mind about things later on, or site conditions required a change - then they could be legitimate additions.

3. drainage. He makes a very clear allowance for drainage, but also requests more money as part of the additions... what "extra" drainage work was necessary?

To help yourself answer things you need to ask yourself;

After you received the quote, did you change your mind or ask him to do ANYTHING else? for example, we know that you asked him to add a roof light - well this is an extra. did you ask for any sinks / wc etc to be repositioned while he was working, or for any new walls or openings to be made?

What we are trying to establish is where your chap has a legitimate claim for extra work and where he is just trying to recoup costs from mis-quoted items?

Then you will be able to discuss with him and accept any of the reasonable additions whilst ignoring any of the cost re-couping. Ultimately, if you have paid 20k, then you expect 20k worth of work to be completed. If he has not completed the original 20k worth of work then he has no business saying that he will not complete it. However, from his point of view - he does not want to come and complete that 20k (plus the extra 7k of work) only to be told he will not be paid the full and final amount.

A final question I have is what terms were agreed for payment?

 

[gnougnoume]

Okay, this is good, but it is still a bit awkward to advise properly without knowing the complete ins and outs. (that and there is a reason why people charge to look at these sorts of things in depth...)

The quote. (call it this from now on please)
This is pretty clear in so far as it is laid out clearly defining what the prices have included. You will note that there are some things in there which will allow for variations... for instance he notes that the electrical figure is a "provisional sum". This means that it is subject to change - for one reason or another - and that this is simply an allowance that he has made towards the final figure.

It doesn't look like he has asked for any extras here though.

Things that I do note his quote allows for;

1. constructing an internal block wall. If this is the same wall as you talked about earlier (the one he claimed he only allowed to make out of stud) then he can't return to you saying he did not allow for it as there is a figure there to make a block wall and it is clearly specified.

2. works to a shower room. "as discussed". You need to know what you discussed with him really. Because his extras include works to the shower room. If this work was originally discussed then it should have been quoted for in this figure. If you changed your mind about things later on, or site conditions required a change - then they could be legitimate additions.

3. drainage. He makes a very clear allowance for drainage, but also requests more money as part of the additions... what "extra" drainage work was necessary?

To help yourself answer things you need to ask yourself;

After you received the quote, did you change your mind or ask him to do ANYTHING else? for example, we know that you asked him to add a roof light - well this is an extra. did you ask for any sinks / wc etc to be repositioned while he was working, or for any new walls or openings to be made?

What we are trying to establish is where your chap has a legitimate claim for extra work and where he is just trying to recoup costs from mis-quoted items?

Then you will be able to discuss with him and accept any of the reasonable additions whilst ignoring any of the cost re-couping. Ultimately, if you have paid 20k, then you expect 20k worth of work to be completed. If he has not completed the original 20k worth of work then he has no business saying that he will not complete it. However, from his point of view - he does not want to come and complete that 20k (plus the extra 7k of work) only to be told he will not be paid the full and final amount.

A final question I have is what terms were agreed for payment?

Payment Schedule
Initial Deposit £4000.00 Paid 11th May 2012
Payment 2 £4000.00 (end of week 2) Paid
Payment 3 £3000.00 (end of week 4) Paid 16th August 2012
Payment 4 £3000.00 (end of week 6) Paid 2nd August 2012
Payment 5 £3000.00 (end of week Paid 17th August 2012
Payment 6 £1000.00 Paid 26th August 2012
Payment 7 £2000.00 Paid 29th August 2012


For the shower room he was supposed to do it from a to z, tiles shower, toilet basin, evrything, as you have seen from the picture , he has done very little.Why would i pay for chasing the concrete when he clearly new there was concrete floor in that room.
For the drain I really do not know what it is.
I would say he misquoted because he told me he was prepared to give us credit for work not completed and we could get £80 for the varnishings of 8 doors and cupboards.
Installing units was part of the quote so charging me £120 for putting this case under my sink is a joke (see previous picture).

He clearly told me that he is not prepared to finish the job (what job i do not know because he wants us to pay even more extra for the shower room) unless we give him the money.

Now I want to write to him but what do I say?

We do not want him back because clearly he hasn't got the workers to do a proper job. We do not want to pay him.
So what can I put in my letter?

For the time being i want to say that the work is poor and not finished and that some of the extra were already quoted and not discussed about.

Also I want to do talk about the safety side f the electricity, the leaks he left. Also the facts there are no terms and conditions.

So any help would be appreciated.

 

[kingandy2nd]

If you've been to CAB then go and pay for an hour with a solicitor. Nothing we or say here will help you much if the builder is simply refusing to continue working unless he gets paid. You need to peruse this through legal channels to either get him to finish the job, or to quit the job,

You've already parted with 20k here, and potentially could be on the hook for another £7k.

Given the sums involved, spend a few hundred quid get an indendant surveyor around to look at the work and then go to a solicitor.

Anything else is probably just a waste of your time.

 

[gnougnoume]

If you've been to CAB then go and pay for an hour with a solicitor. Nothing we or say here will help you much if the builder is simply refusing to continue working unless he gets paid. You need to peruse this through legal channels to either get him to finish the job, or to quit the job,

You've already parted with 20k here, and potentially could be on the hook for another £7k.

Given the sums involved, spend a few hundred quid get an indendant surveyor around to look at the work and then go to a solicitor.

Anything else is probably just a waste of your time.[/quot

Going to a solicitor would cost £30k we were told.small claim court may be. But i want to write to him

 

[jeds]

As I said, you need professional advice on this. There are so many issues you will not identify them all yourself and whilst people on this forum have the best intentions it is not feasible to assess from photos if the building has been propely built, is safe and if what you have paid for the work is reasonable. It also sounds like you are not going to get this work completed by this builder so you will have to employ somebody else to complete it which is only going to cost you even more money.

He is also using the title 'Chartered Building Surveyor' which he is not entitled to do. Firstly it is not a CIOB designation and in any case only members of RICS are entitled to it. You may say who is going to care about that? But it is misrepresentation. Personally I don't think he knows what he is doing.

 

[kingandy2nd]

Going to a solicitor would cost £30k we were told.

Was that by your builder by any chance?

Most solicitors charge by the hour, and some will even give a free consultation. Then you can see where you stand.

 

[SimonH2]

OK, remember that I'm not a professional ...

In law a contract doesn't need to be written, but if it's not written then it's difficult for either side to prove what the terms of that contract were (or were intended to be). This also applies to verbal changes - such as "would it be possible for you to do <something> while you are here ?"

As a consumer, it is an implied term of ANY contract with a trader/business that any services will be completed with a reasonable level of skill/quility - that is specifically stated in law. So unless something else was agreed, then you could reasonably expect pipes to not leak, windows t be fitted properly, and so on.

As others have said, it's really hard to see what's what from photos, but to my eye there are a lot of things that don't look like they have been done properly/to a reasonable standard. As stated, you really need to get someone in who a) knows what they are talking about, and b) can see first hand what has been done. They'll also be able to look at what little paperwork you have.

Once you have a list of defects, then you can insist on him coming back and correcting them. It matters not whether he will or won't come without further money - you have to give him the opportunity to put any defects right. You should also set a reasonable timeframe - your expert will be able to advise on that as well.

If the builder doesn't put the problems right, then it is your right to get someone else to do it and send the original builder the bill. He won't pay it by the sound of things, and you could have to go to court to get it back. Depending on amounts, you might need to cut your losses as the limit for the "small claims court" is £5k - above that then there are different procedures and it gets into "could cost you badly" territory. Within the limit for small claims, then the procedures are relatively simple, and most importantly it is normal that even if you were to lose - the other side could not land you with a big legal bill. My feeling here though is that you wouldn't lose.

As to whether the builder can sue you, well anyone can ! I could, but I'd lose as there'd be no case to answer. If the builder felt that you owe him money then he could take you to court, but he would have to demonstrate that you actually owe the money. This is where your independent expert comes in - if the expert assesses that there is work not completed, or not done properly, then you could not be expected to pay for it - thus even if extras are due, you could deduct the value of what hasn't been supplied (at all/to an acceptable standard) from that - it'll most likely end up that you don't owe any more.

Also, should it go to court, then the fact that this person misrepresented his membership of a recognised body would weigh heavily against him. It's misrepresentation and could be considered fraud - which is a criminal, not a civil, matter. So ask CIOB in writing about this person - the appear to have an online system at http://www.ciob.org.uk/membership/verify
It's interesting that I can't find anything on their site about consumer protection.


As to electrical and gas works.
First check that the people who did the boiler are on the Gas Safe register. If not then they have committed a criminal offence by working on the gas system. I suspect that issuing a certificate after any works is a requirement of their regs/standards and so it could be argued that the work is not complete until you get your certificate.
I think I also noted that the quote says that everything would be left working - no grounds for wanting extras to make radiators work again as any competent heating engineer should have foreseen any reasonable problems. From your description I'm not sure how here should be a need to upgrade any pipes - beyond what should have been obvious (if needed) at the time of quoting.

BS7671 (aka The Wiring Regs) say that issuing a certificate is required - so no certificate means the work hasn't been done to BS7671, and that would be grounds to refuse to pay for the electrical work until you have the certificate.


But above all, heed the earlier advice you've been given and get an independent professional in. There's a lot of money at stake here, and getting an initial assessment shouldn't cost too much. If (or more likely, when) things "get ugly", you don't have the knowledge to stand up to what appears to be a cowboy - an independent expert will. I strongly suspect that a small outlay up front could pay back handsomely. Even if the expert agrees that some more money is due (my feeling it it's unlikely), then at least you will know that it's genuine rather than you just being fleeced.

 

[SimonH2]

Oh yes, from watching the programs on TV, it seems that a common technique of the cowboys is to keep asking for more money before they'll come back - and the customer keeps paying as they don't want to be left with half a job.
I know it's no consolation, but being asked to pay in full before the job is finished should ring alarm bells. There should always be something "held back" until the job is finished or there's no incentive to come back and finish it !

 

[gnougnoume]

OK, remember that I'm not a professional ...

In law a contract doesn't need to be written, but if it's not written then it's difficult for either side to prove what the terms of that contract were (or were intended to be). This also applies to verbal changes - such as "would it be possible for you to do <something> while you are here ?"

As a consumer, it is an implied term of ANY contract with a trader/business that any services will be completed with a reasonable level of skill/quility - that is specifically stated in law. So unless something else was agreed, then you could reasonably expect pipes to not leak, windows t be fitted properly, and so on.

As others have said, it's really hard to see what's what from photos, but to my eye there are a lot of things that don't look like they have been done properly/to a reasonable standard. As stated, you really need to get someone in who a) knows what they are talking about, and b) can see first hand what has been done. They'll also be able to look at what little paperwork you have.

Once you have a list of defects, then you can insist on him coming back and correcting them. It matters not whether he will or won't come without further money - you have to give him the opportunity to put any defects right. You should also set a reasonable timeframe - your expert will be able to advise on that as well.

If the builder doesn't put the problems right, then it is your right to get someone else to do it and send the original builder the bill. He won't pay it by the sound of things, and you could have to go to court to get it back. Depending on amounts, you might need to cut your losses as the limit for the "small claims court" is £5k - above that then there are different procedures and it gets into "could cost you badly" territory. Within the limit for small claims, then the procedures are relatively simple, and most importantly it is normal that even if you were to lose - the other side could not land you with a big legal bill. My feeling here though is that you wouldn't lose.

As to whether the builder can sue you, well anyone can ! I could, but I'd lose as there'd be no case to answer. If the builder felt that you owe him money then he could take you to court, but he would have to demonstrate that you actually owe the money. This is where your independent expert comes in - if the expert assesses that there is work not completed, or not done properly, then you could not be expected to pay for it - thus even if extras are due, you could deduct the value of what hasn't been supplied (at all/to an acceptable standard) from that - it'll most likely end up that you don't owe any more.

Also, should it go to court, then the fact that this person misrepresented his membership of a recognised body would weigh heavily against him. It's misrepresentation and could be considered fraud - which is a criminal, not a civil, matter. So ask CIOB in writing about this person - the appear to have an online system at http://www.ciob.org.uk/membership/verify
It's interesting that I can't find anything on their site about consumer protection.


As to electrical and gas works.
First check that the people who did the boiler are on the Gas Safe register. If not then they have committed a criminal offence by working on the gas system. I suspect that issuing a certificate after any works is a requirement of their regs/standards and so it could be argued that the work is not complete until you get your certificate.
I think I also noted that the quote says that everything would be left working - no grounds for wanting extras to make radiators work again as any competent heating engineer should have foreseen any reasonable problems. From your description I'm not sure how here should be a need to upgrade any pipes - beyond what should have been obvious (if needed) at the time of quoting.

BS7671 (aka The Wiring Regs) say that issuing a certificate is required - so no certificate means the work hasn't been done to BS7671, and that would be grounds to refuse to pay for the electrical work until you have the certificate.


But above all, heed the earlier advice you've been given and get an independent professional in. There's a lot of money at stake here, and getting an initial assessment shouldn't cost too much. If (or more likely, when) things "get ugly", you don't have the knowledge to stand up to what appears to be a cowboy - an independent expert will. I strongly suspect that a small outlay up front could pay back handsomely. Even if the expert agrees that some more money is due (my feeling it it's unlikely), then at least you will know that it's genuine rather than you just being fleeced.

We called CIOb and they could not find him, when i told him he said: i have my certificate but I am not going to show it to you, tomorrow I am going to ring RICS.

 

[SimonH2]

We called CIOb and they could not find him, when i told him he said: i have my certificate but I am not going to show it to you

Which rather suggests he's lying, knows it, but is relying on you not being savvy enough to realise. To my reckoning, he's using their name to improve people's perception of him and so get more work - section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 would seem to cover this. But I wouldn't act on that at this point, keep it as one more weapon in your arsenal during any negotiations.

tomorrow I am going to ring RICS.

Let us know what the outcome is.

 

[JSD]

Have you got any free legal services with any of your insurance policies ?

We have , and they cover us for contractual disputes. Worth a call to them if you have, as they may take legal action on your behalf etc.. To sue individuals and any associations they may belong to.

Just a thought.


Friendly law forum here where lawyers may be able to explain steps etc.

They can't give legal advice per se, but they often do their best to help.

http://www.swarb.co.uk/phpbb/


Good luck.

 

[gnougnoume]

Have you got any free legal services with any of your insurance policies ?

We have , and they cover us for contractual disputes. Worth a call to them if you have, as they may take legal action on your behalf etc.. To sue individuals and any associations they may belong to.

Just a thought.


Friendly law forum here where lawyers may be able to explain steps etc.

They can't give legal advice per se, but they often do their best to help.

http://www.swarb.co.uk/phpbb/


Good luck.

Unfortunately I do not have legal cover for my home insurance but I have legal cover for my car insurance but that would not cover it?

 

[JSD]

Check the terms of your legal cover. Often they can cover well beyond motoring disputes etc.

On our legal cover with the house for example, that covers legal fee's upto £100k for defending speeding fines, and contract disputes for any family member etc.

Simple way if not sure, ring the insurers, they'll tell you what areas you have legal cover for, beyond motoring disputes etc.

Worth a shot..

 

[AdamCH]

Would it be possible to pay another surveyer to give an expert opinion (and list the faults) rather than go straight to legal?

Sounds like he knows what he's doing to me - he already has £20k of your money & is just looking for more or you to give him an excuse to leaving the job as it is.

Can't imagine that he's going to sue you.

I think I'd be looking to get some of the £20k back and pay someone else to fix it rather than paying him more.

 

[Spark123]

Out of interest, have you tried searching for his name / companies name on google?
Have you checked his trading name on the companies house website?