Party Wall question please

Joined
18 Aug 2010
Messages
1,012
Reaction score
27
Location
London
Country
United Kingdom
Hi

I have a semi detached house and will be building a single storey and part two storey side extension. The extension will be built such that my house will now be 1 metre from my unattached neighbour.

I've looked through the Party Wall advice document and it says that I need a PWA agreement if I plan to build within 3 metres of my neighbours property AND if those foundations will go deeper than the neighbours foundations.

My BR drawings state that there will be a trench type foundation of MINIMUM depth 1 metre.

Now how am I supposed to know how deep my neighbour's foundations are? Even if I did what if the BR inspector asks for the foundations to be dug deeper once work starts?

Can anybody help?

Thanks[/b]
 
Sponsored Links
I hope you get some informative answers on this as I've often wondered how you would know the depth of next-doors foundation. In all probability they will be the same as yours, particularly if the houses were built as part of one development,
But this is not invariably the case, and ground conditions (and hence foundation depth) can vary significantly within quite a small compass.
Would you be expected to pay to have a trial pit dug in your neighbours' side path, assuming he agreed?
If he didn't agree, would this be classed as 'a dispute having arisen'?
Or would his lack of co-operation absolve you from having to comply with the provisions of the Act?
An interesting question.
 
Common sense dictates that you assume that your proposed foundations wont be deeper than the neighbours, and so the PWA wont apply
 
Thanks Tony

Woody. Haven't the depth requirements stipulated by LA for foundations increased over the years? In which case if my neighbours house was built 70 years ago the chances are my foundations probably will be deeper.


Thanks for your help
 
Sponsored Links
There is nothing in section 6 of the act, to say that you must detail the neighbours foundations, and you have no rights (or obligation) to excavate to check them.

So you must assume. And assumptions can vary, especially if you are not a professional builder or suchlike, in which case you may in all likelihood assume that next door's foundations are already as deep as your proposed foundations

The alternative is that you just serve notice and deal with it that way

In any case you still need to take the required precautions, and PW Act or not, the neighbour still has the same rights to claim for any damages you may cause. The PW Act makes not much difference
 
Thanks Woody.

This might sound like a stupid question but how would digging a foundation (whether deeper or not) about a metre from my neighbour potentially damage his property?

Thanks
 
Foundations spread their load down and at roughly 45 degrees. So potentially, digging close to a wall with shallow foundations could mean that the trench is within this 45 degree area and so ground could be pushed sideways (into the trench), leading to the foundations subsiding
 
Thanks Woody.

Going back to this statement you made

Quote Woody

In any case you still need to take the required precautions, and PW Act or not, the neighbour still has the same rights to claim for any damages you may cause. The PW Act makes not much difference

Read more: //www.diynot.com/forums/buildi...question-please.316722/#2338331#ixzz1pSDMsm4H




I see a subtle but important difference depending on whether a PWA is undertaken or not. Please tell me whether you agree.

1) If a PWA is undertaken then the adjoining owner can appoint a surveyor at my cost. This surveyor would be charged with checking my works. Should my foundations end up being deeper than his than I assume the adjoining owner may also be able to appoint at my cost a surveyor/engineer to do calcs and check any underpinning I need to do to his property?


2) If a PWA is not undertaken then if he wants to check any of the work he has to pay for a surveyor at his cost. Obviously if any damage is caused to the integrity of his property then I am completely liable.

I have no intention on doing anything that will compromise his property and will spend whatever is required to ensure this.
What I am trying to avoid is the added cost (that the PWA might afford the adjoining owner) of having a second surveyor charging me to independently verify what I will have already paid my surveyor to do.

So the question is if I don't undertake a PWA will that mean I can avoid liability for any surveyors costs incurred by the adjoining owner?


Many many thanks for your kind help
:)
 
You wont need to underpin a neighbours property

PW surveyors are there to ensure that the work is done as per the design and any impact on the two parties is minimal - they do this by detailing precautions that need to be taken in carrying out the work.

They are not there to redesign

If you don't use the PWA, then a neighbour has no rights to check, comment or anything on your property or work. All he can do is monitor his own property

If you use the PWA, the neighbour can appoint his own surveyor, and you have your own. Each surveyor is supposed to work "for the Act" not whoever appoints him, but many times they are biased. Once instructed, the first thing the surveyors must do is agree a third surveyor - who will decide any disputes/disagreements between the two. You will pay for all of these, and you have not control over their costs
 
Thanks Woody.

So if you were in my scenario (which I will briefly summarise below) would you undertake a PWA or not?

Side extension to my semi detached property built 1903.

Side extension to finish 1 metre from the side of adjoining property. Adjoining property is newer, I would estimate at least 1930s but actually looks post war.

Foundation spec is 1m (minimum) depth traditional trench fill. BR drawings could be changed to read '1m, to be confirmed on site'


Does this give me reasonable grounds NOT to undertake a PWA and not get into trouble? In other words if the foundations do exceed the depth of adjoining property due to stipulations on site by LA the adjoining owner can't get a court injunction etc.


Once again I'm grateful for your expertise
 
The correct professional advice is that the PWA should be followed if it applies.

If you choose not to, then there is no penalty on you. The only risk is if the neighbour seeks an injunction on the work until you follow the Act

So there is a choice. One involves potential significant extra costs, one does not. Either way, your liability for any damage to their property remains the same.

If you have a difficult neighbour, need access to their land, or want to pre-empt any claims for [existing] damages then you may want to follow the Act

If you have competent builders, then the precautions they take should be the same whether the Act is involved or not.

It seems to me that your plan drawer has just put a typical "1m or to the satisfaction of the BCO" on the plans to deal with the footings. Unless there is bad ground or a massive tree nearby, then 1m tends to be the required depth. If you had bad ground, then the existing buildings would show it.

At 1m from the neighbours wall, in good ground, you could normally go down to about 1.5m before coming within the influencing distance from the neighbours foundations - assuming that they are about 500mm - if they are deeper then the influencing distance goes deeper too

You need to speak with your designer or someone who has seen the site to see if there are any factors which may mean deeper foundations, or potential issues with the ground. What have any neighbours done? Does the council inspector know if other local properties required deep foundations?

If this is a typical semi, then this type of work is very common with 1m foundations and no problems

But you need to decide yourself what is the best thing to do for you
 
Thanks for taking the time to answer Woody.

For me to make an informed, intelligent decision on this I need to just clarify what seems like two contradictory/differing comments you made


In post 3 you say common sense dictates that I should assume that my neighbours foundations are the same depth as my proposed ones (1000mm) and so PWA is not indicated

In your last post you have referred to my neighbours foundations and said 'assuming they are 500mm'

So, is it appropriate for me to assume my neighbours foundations are the same as my proposed (ie 1000mm), assume they are 500mm, or can no assumption be made?


Thanks and sorry to drag this out so much
 
If you did not want to go through the PWA and the potential expense, frustration etc, then it would be "common sense" to assume that the foundations are not deeper than your proposed, and further assume that the PWA wont apply

There would be arguments that this would be a reasonable assumption

Regard my assumption of a 500mm depth of the neighbours foundations, I merely used this figure to demonstrate that even at this depth, your proposed 1m foundations would not influence them if the ground was stable
 
Indy,
Google web site below

Do you require Party Wall advice? We are an experienced firm of Chartered
Surveyors based in the North London area that specialise in Party Wall matters.
http://www.peterbarry.co.uk/party-wall-surveyors/ - Similar pages

Go to further reading and read the blog posts by Justin Burns especially the last two.

Then go to Party wall advice and read the two questions listed below.

Our Neighbours have Started Work on a Side Extension and have not notified us. Are they in Breach of The Act?

I have served a Section 1 and 6 Notice on My Neighbour and he has not replied. Can I start Works?

Now read rest of web site.

Regards oldun
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Sponsored Links
Back
Top