Permitted development for side return extension?

[deshg]

Hey everyone,

Myself and my girlfriend have just bought a victorian terraced house in Stoke Newington, London (in the borough of Hackney) and want to do a side return extension to increase the size of the kitchen. I have spoken to Hackney Planners to try an establish if this can be done under permitted development and they suggested we do a preplanning app to establish this. The current layout is:

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• deshg
• 28 May 2012
• 1

The proposed layout is (roughly!):

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• deshg
• 28 May 2012
• 1

From reading the planning portal guidelines there are two things that concern me:

(1) The planning portal says you can't extend further than 3m from the back wall and the image at the top of page 23 in the guidance document (http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/100806_PDforhouseholders_TechnicalGuidance.pdf) says that for a side return extension the back wall is considered the main part of the house (ie a side return basically can't be more than 3m in length). This is only half the length of the side return (which is 6.1m) so does this mean i'm right in saying if we want to do this extension then we would need full planning permission as it's longer than 3m, or have i misunderstood the guidelines?
(2) I believe the entire house as it is currently is original but the earliest land registry plans are from 1961 (showing it as it is now). From what the planner said the original building is considered as it was in 1948 so (in theory) the back extension could have been added between 1948 and 1961. Given there are no plans i can't see how i can establish this one way or the other (the planner agreed that this could be difficult/impossible and it was up to us to decide how sure we were which seems rather unhelpful!)

I am going through this with my structural engineer etc but also wanted to check with you guys and get some impartial advise so any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks so much as ever!

Dave

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

You are right, the extension can only be 3m deep under PD so a full application will be required. That makes your query's as to what's original a moot point. So you can bang in an application for the full length one and it should be approved provided it complies with the Local Plan guidance. So you'll need to hunt this document down and have a read, find out if/how much your council uses the right to light legislation, it should mention this within the guidance. Once your application is in you can usually get hold of the planner dealing with your job at a stage whereby you can assess whether they're likely to approve it or not and if not why not and make any amendments you consider necessary/acceptable etc or not as the case may be. Even if rejected you get another stab at it. Consider employing someone to do the app for you who will be prepared to monitor the application and discuss it with planning as it trundles along. Some agents will just whack it in and wash their hands of it and then act all surprised like when a refusal plops through their letter box!

A pre-planning app is seldom worthwhile for small scale domestic jobs. Domestic pre-apps (even when the LA charge you for them) are (IMHO) usually little more than a 5 minute opinion (along with the standard provisos) and are only worth doing if something does not meet Local Plan guidance or are a bit different/odd etc.

 

[deshg]

You are right, the extension can only be 3m deep under PD so a full application will be required. That makes your query's as to what's original a moot point. So you can bang in an application for the full length one and it should be approved provided it complies with the Local Plan guidance. So you'll need to hunt this document down and have a read, find out if/how much your council uses the right to light legislation, it should mention this within the guidance. Once your application is in you can usually get hold of the planner dealing with your job at a stage whereby you can assess whether they're likely to approve it or not and if not why not and make any amendments you consider necessary/acceptable etc or not as the case may be. Even if rejected you get another stab at it. Consider employing someone to do the app for you who will be prepared to monitor the application and discuss it with planning as it trundles along. Some agents will just whack it in and wash their hands of it and then act all surprised like when a refusal plops through their letter box!

A pre-planning app is seldom worthwhile for small scale domestic jobs. Domestic pre-apps (even when the LA charge you for them) are (IMHO) usually little more than a 5 minute opinion (along with the standard provisos) and are only worth doing if something does not meet Local Plan guidance or are a bit different/odd etc.

Hi freddymercurystwin,

Thanks so much for your detailed response, it is very much appreciated to get that confirmation. I am going to go and discuss it with a local planner to confirm their local policies and see if there's anything else we should be aware of then get all the drawings done. On a separate (but related) point my structural engineer has just told me that he would charge about £1200 to do the drawings for the planning app and I wanted to see if this sounds reasonable (we are in London) or if you would expect us to be able to get this done cheaper?

Thanks so much for your advise,

Dave

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Well I would read up on the Local Plan yourself prior to meting with any planners (even have a copy of the relevant segment to hand) Cynically I'd be surprised if your authority does not discourage such developments as it is likely to have a impact on your neighbour in terms of their right to light. Consider by how much you would be prepared to chop back your development.

£1200 is OK for planning and building regs assuming it includes the structural calcs/drawings. Head what I said about making sure your chosen agent is aware he needs to approach planning during the application period and be prepared to make some amendments to get it through. He should be familiar with the Local Plan guidance!

BTW planning permission aside, you may be in for an expensive build if you really want to get that full width door in at the rear of your new kitchen. A hefty beam will be required to support the existing first floor wall in the middle of your new kitchen. That beam is gonna need to be supported above your full width door by another even hefty beam! It would be more economical if you can leave some of the existing wall in place and a nib at the end to try and reduce the span of the openings.

 

[rjm2k]

Given there are no plans i can't see how i can establish this one way or the other (the planner agreed that this could be difficult/impossible and it was up to us to decide how sure we were which seems rather unhelpful!)

Since it's a terraced house, perhaps it's enough proof if the rest of the row follows the same design?

 

[mysteryman]

My sister's house in W4 has had exactly this done.