Subsidence / insurance issue advice please.

[buder]

Hello all, first time poster here.

Im after some advice regarding a substantial crack which has been noticed to the upstairs rear addition where it meets the main part of the house.

Its an old property est around 1930's. When you reach the top of the stairs its a split landing where entering the rear addition which is surrounded by sort of wooden frame where the 3rd box room and small bathroom is.

We have been aware for some time of the fact the frame around the entrance to the rear addition has been comming away from the wall, there is also a gap where the wall paper meets. We always thought it was a case of the frame in disrepair its an old house with traditional features sort of thing and needs some maintenance upstairs.

whats worrying me is we had our neighbour round who is a carpenter with a view to replacing the frame etc and he said the wall has actually pushed the frame away in part from itself. We picked some of the corking away which had stretched in places and could see a large crack as if the wall is separating at the rear addition. There is also evidence when you look above on one side the wall is clearly off line and pushing the top of frame outwards towards one side the adjoining wall of the rear addition part.

Ive spoken to the neighbours and they have the same cracks / gaps in the same place although ours seem worse. Our side is end of terrace.

My concerns are that the insurance company will deny liability as this has clearly been present for a long time and I have not brought it to their attention in a timely fashion ??. I dont know why ive ignored addressing this for so long but I didnt think it was a as serious as it seems now I can see it properly. The gap is over an inch most definitely. It only seems to be present upstairs and I cant see anything outside but then I may not if this is the separation point ?.

what has had me thinking is there was some corking covering the gaps in the frame so also what concerns me is that we bought the property like this some 4 years ago and efforts were made to hide it at the time with it now getting worse to the extent its plainly obvious.

what do you people think, My ultimate concerns are over my insurance company denying responsibility and where that leaves me. Have I invalidated anything by being ignorant and not noticing the extent of this problem sooner and contacting my insurers ?

many thanks, sorry if my terminology is not accurate when it comes to building and stuff I know nothing.

 

[KenGMac]

Hi

no easy one stop answer, every Insurer has their "own rules" especially as regards "long tern operating cause" [a clause in all Policies] that is an escape route for the Insurer to decline a claim.

For example a lot of Insurance policies now are refusing to cover escapes of water at Bath or Shower seals unless you have accidental Damage cover in place.

I Digress,
I see from the post that you live in London, london clay is notorious for shrinking, especially under the action of trees, during a dry spell in Summer the nearby trees will continue to demand water from the ground, as there is little rain the Tree who is sucking water 24/7 will at times win, the clay then becomes friable, and Subsidence occurs.
Question are their any trees within about 35 / 40M of the Property? if so what kind, some trees. Weeping Willow, Oaks and a few others can have very extended root systems, the culprit tree can be identified by Genetic testing of the roots, not cheap.

other causes of Subs in London clay, indeed anywhere is a faulty underground drain, if the drain is leaking it will erode away a large volume of soil and Subsidence can occur, in Scotland this and mining are the two big causations of Subs. [Peat is also a problem]

Again I digress.
Dig out your original Survey from the time that you purchased the property, if there is a definitive statement in there [I doubt it] stating the property is not suffering from Subsidence then that is a good starting point.
Have a look at the HIPS pack that can]me with the property, it [as i understand it] a MUST that a "defect" such as the property having suffered from Subsidence or indeed had repairs undertake MUST be highlighted in that document, if not and it turns out that the Property has suffered then a quick chat to your Legal Eagle may be needed?

One argument that you could consider with the Insurer is to say
1/. My survey did / DID NOT indicate Subsidence was occurring.
2/. my HIPS pack also states - - -
3/. Someone has done a cover up over the crack, at a time as yet not known, this repair and concealment has fooled the Surveyor who inspected the property when you purchased it [if indeed that is what the survey states]

Bottom line is have a good look at the policy wording, especially the "EXCLUSIONS" and the Section dealing with Subsidence [it attracts a £1,000.00 Excess, that can be offest by you undertaking the internal decoration following any repairs]
Chat to your neighbour, and the Neighbours in the locality get some local knowledge going and see what comes up.
You can check at the town Hall because any Subs repairs will have had to be approved by building Control [or at least in Scotland that is the case]

if this thing goes ahead then the "party Wall Act" will probably kick in? If your neighbour has a crack in the corresponding position on his wall then he will need to register claim as well.

Sorry if i am banging on at this one, there is a lot to consider, hope some of the above may assist?

Please post and ask any questions that the above has triggered.

Cheers.

Ken.

 

[buder]

Hi

no easy one stop answer, every Insurer has their "own rules" especially as regards "long tern operating cause" [a clause in all Policies] that is an escape route for the Insurer to decline a claim.

For example a lot of Insurance policies now are refusing to cover escapes of water at Bath or Shower seals unless you have accidental Damage cover in place.

I Digress,
I see from the post that you live in London, london clay is notorious for shrinking, especially under the action of trees, during a dry spell in Summer the nearby trees will continue to demand water from the ground, as there is little rain the Tree who is sucking water 24/7 will at times win, the clay then becomes friable, and Subsidence occurs.
Question are their any trees within about 35 / 40M of the Property? if so what kind, some trees. Weeping Willow, Oaks and a few others can have very extended root systems, the culprit tree can be identified by Genetic testing of the roots, not cheap.

other causes of Subs in London clay, indeed anywhere is a faulty underground drain, if the drain is leaking it will erode away a large volume of soil and Subsidence can occur, in Scotland this and mining are the two big causations of Subs. [Peat is also a problem]

Again I digress.
Dig out your original Survey from the time that you purchased the property, if there is a definitive statement in there [I doubt it] stating the property is not suffering from Subsidence then that is a good starting point.
Have a look at the HIPS pack that can]me with the property, it [as i understand it] a MUST that a "defect" such as the property having suffered from Subsidence or indeed had repairs undertake MUST be highlighted in that document, if not and it turns out that the Property has suffered then a quick chat to your Legal Eagle may be needed?

One argument that you could consider with the Insurer is to say
1/. My survey did / DID NOT indicate Subsidence was occurring.
2/. my HIPS pack also states - - -
3/. Someone has done a cover up over the crack, at a time as yet not known, this repair and concealment has fooled the Surveyor who inspected the property when you purchased it [if indeed that is what the survey states]

Bottom line is have a good look at the policy wording, especially the "EXCLUSIONS" and the Section dealing with Subsidence [it attracts a £1,000.00 Excess, that can be offest by you undertaking the internal decoration following any repairs]
Chat to your neighbour, and the Neighbours in the locality get some local knowledge going and see what comes up.
You can check at the town Hall because any Subs repairs will have had to be approved by building Control [or at least in Scotland that is the case]

if this thing goes ahead then the "party Wall Act" will probably kick in? If your neighbour has a crack in the corresponding position on his wall then he will need to register claim as well.

Sorry if i am banging on at this one, there is a lot to consider, hope some of the above may assist?

Please post and ask any questions that the above has triggered.

Cheers.

Ken.

Thank you Ken for that post it's given me allot of information to think about.

As an update I've spoken to the neighbour who is slightly further down the line with regards to his insurance claim. The surveyor confirmed it was subsidence but was very slight, as there are no trees surrounding our properties he was very sure it's due to a leaking drain somewhere. This Friday they are coming to survey the drains.

I do not have a man hole cover on my side but my neighbour does.

How does this work insurance wise if the leaking drain is found to be on his side, I understand I still have the claim if I wish to pursue relating to the cracking in my home but does his insurance pay for the drain damage if it's on his property ?.

Feasibly can the insurers say this drain must have been leaking for 6 years therefore your not covered ?

 

[KenGMac]

Budder, Hi.
In no particular order.
If your neighbour has had a Subs claim accepted then it will be very, very difficult for your Insurer not to do likewise, which is to accept the claim.
I recall that your neighbour has lesser damage than you do so the Subs event may be slight in his property but worse in yours, happens fairly frequently.
Given no trees, how about “large shrubs”? They can also do some Subs damage.
As an aside, the next thing on the radar is Japanese Knot Weed, it if in abundance can damage foundations and brick work under buildings?
As far as who pays for what when repairing drains, at one time in England there was an act that apportioned drain repair costs to everyone who used the drain, there has been a recent change in the law and in some cases the Local Authority might pick up the costs, in general terms the cost of repair will be split between the two Insurers.
As for the drain leaking for a considerable time, in this instance it would be unusual for the Insurer to decline the claim using “long term operating cause” this because you cannot see the drain therefore you did not know it was in need of repair, on the other hand if the drain was repaired then the insurer can pursue the drain repairer for a recovery of the Insurers outlays to repair the Subsidence that is now occurring.
The last point brings up another, did your Pre-Purchase Survey mention anything at all about there being or had been a Subs event within your property? Reason for this is that if the Surveyor noted an old subs related damage but stated that it was no longer active, then the Insurer can pursue the Surveyor for a recovery as above. But wait for the Surveyor / Engineer to ask for it before you offer it to the insurer, any other way looks suspicious and questions may be asked?
I would suggest that you have a look at the policy wording especially the section that deals with Subs and also the Exclusions that apply to the entire Policy and the Subsidence part of it, because they all vary in wording. Even different Policies issued by the same Insurer can be totally different to each other.
Hope all goes well with the Drain survey; keep us posted as to how things go?

 

[buder]

Hiya ken

Thanks for all your time it's very much appreciated.

Slightly reassuring reading that, I have since dug out my hip and survey.

The environmental survey reported no issues and a very low risk of Subsidence in the local area.

The survey part detailing potential risks asks:

Is there any evidence or reason to anticipate damage arising from subsidence, heave or flood - it was answered no.

Are you aware of any subsidence, landslip, eave or flood in the immediate vicinity - it was answered no again.

"General remarks of the surveyed did stae evidence of structural movement was observed in the form of some cracking tonfront wall above bay and around door and window openings. This appears to be long standing and non progressive, the likelihood of further significant movement seems remote. No structural works are considered necessary."

The survey is not a full structural survey however but does that put me in good stead above if they try anything ??

The questonaire as part if the hips to the previous owner also asks about any previous drain damage and subsidence which they answered no to.

There are no large shrubs, no knot weed either nearby.

I've tried reading the policy wording but it doesn't mention anything about prior ownership or anything I can see that causes me concern.

My neighbours claim is still at the investigatory stage slightly further along the line to ours, they are coming to look at the drains on Friday.

I can confirm the neighbours were asked to hand over their survey when the structural engineer looked at their damage.

I'm pretty sure our damage is worse but does that indicate our house may be the route cause.

Cheers

 

[KenGMac]

Buder, hi.

Having had a look at the last post, I for one if I were handling the claim would have no hesitation in accepting it, this because the HIPS and Survey are all pointing in the correct direction, likewise I believe that the drains will turn out as the culprit in this claim

Remember the insurer cannot decline the claim based on drains, because what you cannot see you have no method of realising that something is amiss, conversely if it is a Bath or Shower Seal, or tile Grout that you see almost every day that has deteriorated and perished then in that situation no cover, claim declined.

Having worked as a Subs Engineer / Surveyor, and remotely handled London Clay Claims I would be accepting the claim, based on what we have here.
The basic premise of any insurance claim is for the claimant to prove to the insurer that an event has occurred and that an Insurance “Peril” has been triggered which in turn means that the insurer has to make good the loss that the insured has suffered.

If I were you I would be making a claim to your Insurer, do not delay it too long it is important that the Insurer be advised of a claim as soon as possible, failure to advise the Insurer can ring alarm bells inside the insurance Company.

What to do now is make a claim, get the Neighbours Insurance Company details, or if an Adjuster their details and contact Tel. No. For the Engineer, and start the waiting game.

In general terms what will happen now is roughly as follows.
Drain test and CCTV survey, monitoring by gluing small studs to the area of the crack returning to monitor the gaps every Month or so. Checking [by the Engineer] to see if there are any underground services in the vicinity. Undertake a hand auger to get samples of the soil under the foundations, having them tested in a Lab. And finally anything from 3 months to a Year after the first notification of a claim repairs can start if needed to the foundations and internally as well.

Keep us posted, I would be astonished if the claim were to be rejected, I believe that you have a cast iron case given the HIPS and Survey reports.

Cheers.

Ken.