Intermediate light switch, wierd behaviour

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Hi all
I've wired some switches and sockets in the past but am far from being a professional... was hoping for some advice!


I recently bought a house and the hallway lights are wired up to 3 light switches - one by the front door, one at the end of the hallway and one on the upstairs landing.

But I'm seeing some wierd behavior: the hallway and upstairs switches will toggle the lights on-and-off between them, but when the doorway switch is flipped downwards it overrides the other 2 switches completely, supplying power to the lights regardless of what you do to the doorway or upstairs switches. When it's flipped back upwards it hands control back to the upstairs and hallway switches again (which means that if they're in a configuration where they're providing power to the lights then flipping the doorway switch just causes a brief flicker as it switches from power to power).


I was assuming they were meant to be wired up as 3 way switches so you could toggle the lights from the doorway, the hall or upstairs and that maybe someone botched up the wiring somehow, so I've unscrewed the switches and taken a look at the wiring.

I was expecting to find something like this:
electrics:lighting:3waysw.jpg

...but with some obvious mistake that I could quickly rectify.

But what I found has me completely stumped! I'm seeing wiring almost identical to the above - with the doorway switch being the intermediate switch - but neither of the other 2 switches has the "circuit cable" coming into it. ie. both the upstairs and the hallway switch wiring looks identical to the bottom switch in the diagram and the intermediate switch is wired exactly as in the diagram.

Also, it seems the previous owner took down the light fitting which they had in the hallway and replaced it with a "normal" bulb holder like this: http://www.screwfix.com/p/mk-loop-in-batten-lampholder/96320 - so I'm wondering if they somehow screwed up the wiring when they did it?

I'm assuming that my only option is to open-up the light fitting and take a look... but I've put that on hold as I ran out of "tinkering time" for today.

Could anyone venture an opinion on what's going on with my wiring? I can't imagine the intention was to have some strange override-switch at the front door but maybe it's no unheard of?

Any opinions would be greatfully received!
 
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Can you post up some photos of the connections at all three of your switches?

I'm guessing that you've probably got your strappers connected up incorrectly at the intermediate switch.
 
Leave the light alone for now
an intermediate should switch "X" or "II" across the strappers sounds like yours is connected "X" and "=" thus linking across the pair , instead of straight through.

Rotating all four by one terminal may solve it but FIRST take note of what wires currently go where

You could remove the inter and link the matching strappers across and verify it works as two way and that will prove your inter was connected wrong or faulty

The strapper numbering can sometimes be misleading and a multimeter will prove the switching operation of your switch
 
Thanks for the replies guys!

So I tried to take photos when I ahd the switches unscrewed... however in the case of the upstairs and hallway switches it was impossible to get a decent picture. In both cases the switches won't come away enough from the wall without wires being disconnected. Which I don't mind doing if you really think you need a picture - though I satisfied myself that in both cases there was only a 3core cable attached and that the red was connected to the common terminal. It doesn't matter which way round the blue/yellow are, as long as they're connected to L1 and L2, right?

Here's the sort of picture I was getting:
(note that it's on a 2gang switch so you can see an extra wire coming into the back-box, but it's connected to the other switch!)

I was however able to get decent pictures of the intermediate (front door) switch:
I've added 2 pics as one clearly shows the terminal numbering and the other shows the wires coming from the respective cables.


I'm not too surprised to see you're both pointing the finger at the intermediate switch... one thing I didn't think to try was multimeter'ing to check which way round the terminals were - I assumed the numbering scheme was foolproof! :)

Do the pics help at all?
 
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Intermediate switch -

The wires should be connected -

One 'cable' to the top and one to the bottom with

the Blues on one 'side' and Yellows on the other

and the reds connected together as they are.
 
Intermediate switch - The wires should be connected - One 'cable' to the top and one to the bottom with
the Blues on one 'side' and Yellows on the other and the reds connected together as they are.
Is that not exactly what the OP says he has ("...the intermediate switch is wired exactly as in the diagram")?

Is it conceivable that he has an 'atypical' intermediate switch with the top/bottom and 'sides' transposed in comparison with what we expect? From the behaviour he's describing,it sounds as if the intermediate switch is simply joining the strappers when in the 'on' position.

Kind Regards, John
 
Is that not exactly what the OP says he has ("...the intermediate switch is wired exactly as in the diagram")?

Is it conceivable that he has an 'atypical' intermediate switch with the top/bottom and 'sides' transposed in comparison with what we expect? From the behaviour he's describing,it sounds as if the intermediate switch is simply joining the strappers when in the 'on' position.

Kind Regards, John
Ah... So when I said "exactly as in the diagram" I was looking at the labelling of the terminals and not the orientation of the cables. So if you look at the middle picture you can see that both terminals on the nearest side of the switch are labelled "2" (and the other side's are both "1"). So the cables are connected up to the sides of the switch rather than the top-and-bottom (which is what the diagram shows).

So either my terminals are wrongly labelled and it's an easy fix, or there's some other problem.
I can easily prove one way or the other with my multimeter so I'll do that tonight - as long as it's still daylight when I get home :)

Thanks guys.
 
Is that not exactly what the OP says he has ("...the intermediate switch is wired exactly as in the diagram")?
Not really. Only possible if if the switch works sideways.
Is the rocker horizontal?

Is it conceivable
Are you saying you have encountered such?

that he has an 'atypical' intermediate switch with the top/bottom and 'sides' transposed in comparison with what we expect?
I wouldn't have thought so.

From the behaviour he's describing,it sounds as if the intermediate switch is simply joining the strappers when in the 'on' position.
Precisely, but it should also do that in the 'off' position.

It doesn't work properly so I still think my remedy is more likely.
 
Is that not exactly what the OP says he has ("...the intermediate switch is wired exactly as in the diagram")?
Not really. Only possible if if the switch works sideways.
He appeared to be describing the appearance of the wiring ("exactly as in the diagram"), but he has now clarified that his wiring is (if I understand him correctly) actualy '90 degree different' from the diagram.
It doesn't work properly so I still think my remedy is more likely.
If my understanding of the OP's latest clarification is correct, then I agree that your remedy may well work - since that will then change the wiring so that it really is "exactly as in the diagram".

Kind Regards, John
 
Is that not exactly what the OP says he has ("...the intermediate switch is wired exactly as in the diagram")?
Not really. Only possible if if the switch works sideways.
He appeared to be describing the appearance of the wiring ("exactly as in the diagram"), but he has now clarified that his wiring is (if I understand him correctly) actualy '90 degree different' from the diagram.
It doesn't work properly so I still think my remedy is more likely.
If my understanding of the OP's latest clarification is correct, then I agree that your remedy may well work - since that will then change the wiring so that it really is "exactly as in the diagram".

Kind Regards, John

Yes - the wiring is "90 degrees different from the diagram", however rotating the wiring by 90 degrees will still not make the switch "exactly as in the diagram" becuase then each cable will have their wires connected to both a "1" and a "2" terminal. The diagram shows one cable with it's wires connected to both "1" terminals and the other cable with it's wires connected to both "2" terminals.

When I wrote my original post I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that the orientation of the cables was less relevant than the numbering of the terminals.

The switch isn't sideways BTW, it switches up-down.
 
Remove the intermediate switch.

Connect the two yellows together and the two blues together.

Do the two remaining switches work as they should?


If they do then the intermediate switch is faulty.
 
Yes - the wiring is "90 degrees different from the diagram", however rotating the wiring by 90 degrees will still not make the switch "exactly as in the diagram" becuase then each cable will have their wires connected to both a "1" and a "2" terminal. The diagram shows one cable with it's wires connected to both "1" terminals and the other cable with it's wires connected to both "2" terminals. When I wrote my original post I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that the orientation of the cables was less relevant than the numbering of the terminals.
Fair enough. I think EFLI is probably correct and that you are being misled by (to my mind) less-than-clear numbering of the terminals.

You could remove the switch and examine its operation with a multimeter, so that we're certain as to 'what terminals are which'. However, it's probably simplest to just make the suggested change ('rotate connections through 90 degrees') and see if that cures the problem, since nothing nasty will happen if we've got in wrong.

Kind Regards, John
 
However, it's probably simplest to just make the suggested change ('rotate connections through 90 degrees') and see if that cures the problem, since nothing nasty will happen if we've got in wrong.

Kind Regards, John

Thanks John, "nothing nasty will happen" was what I was hoping to hear - I'll try rotating the wiring tonight.

Remove the intermediate switch.

Connect the two yellows together and the two blues together.

Do the two remaining switches work as they should?


If they do then the intermediate switch is faulty.

...and thanks EFLI - if I get no joy rotating the wiring I'll remove the switch as you've suggested and get a new one if needed.


Thanks again for the input guys!
 
Oh, I thought he meant he had already rotated and it still didn't work.

I don't really think you can compare L1,L1,L2,L2 with (to my mind) 1,2,1,2.

Some intermediates are marked 1,2,3,4.
 
Just had a look at an MK intermediate switch on my van, and the wiring does need rotating through 90 degrees
 

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