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What is now notifiable?


 
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flyingsparks

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:44 pm Reply with quote

Was it the 1st of June that the new rules for what is and is not notifiable came in? What is now classed as notifiable? Are all new circuits still? What about a new circuit In a detached garage? Cheers
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JohnW2

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:02 pm Reply with quote

flyingsparks wrote:
Was it the 1st of June that the new rules for what is and is not notifiable came in? What is now classed as notifiable? Are all new circuits still? What about a new circuit In a detached garage? Cheers

6th April, not 1st June. Any new circuit (wherever it is), replacing a CU, work in the zones of a bathroom/'special location'. That's it.

Kind Regards, John
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EFLImpudence

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:27 pm Reply with quote

Started separate spin-off.


Last edited by EFLImpudence on Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total
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ericmark

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:47 am Reply with quote

Careful changes only apply to England. The poster has UK as location and Wales plus Scotland have not changed. Not sure about Ulster and Isle of Man and any other place where they have some home rule.

Also the new rules swap the wording talking about what has to be registered not what has not got to be registered. Before if was not on list of exemptions then it was registered which gave less room to wriggle out of it.

New circuit is a phrase which really needs some defining. The BS7671 defines as:- Circuit. An assembly of electrical equipment supplied from the same origin and protected against overcurrent by the same protective device(s).

Clearly a FCU would create a new circuit but this has not been considered as a new circuit under Part P. One is permitted to take a spur from the MCB within the CU and it has been questioned if the CU is fully populated then if you use an existing MCB is it a new circuit? That MCB could have been an old circuit with no definition the phrase "new circuit" is meaningless.

Personally I think it was intended that work within the consumer unit should be notified but that is not the wording.

So consumer unit replacement and work within a stipulated area within the bathroom not the whole bathroom is now notifiable work. Even with that still allowed like for like replacement.

Again like for like is not defined. I would say identical part numbers but many consider swapping a old shower for new shower is like for like even when not the same wattage or make.

It would be down to the courts to decide. So what we need is a court case where some one has fitted a new cable and socket to an existing MCB which did not before have a cable fitted to it. With of course no other devastation from Part P. I will not hold my breath it is not going to happen.

In England now Part P is the domestic version of electricity at work act giving teeth to prosecute where BS7671 has not been followed. Like the electricity at work act first one has to get caught.

As before it is down to home owner to ensure the LABC is informed either by using a scheme member or direct and where a non scheme member issues a minor works or installation certificate then it would be hard in court to show the electrician was doing anything wrong. No permits to work are issued so there is no way the electrician knows the job has been notified other than work of mouth which under British health and safety law is not permitted all items to do with health and safety must be in writing.

The scheme member must do what the membership requires which includes things like signing multi signature forms. i.e. third party inspection and testing.

So to me in England Part P allows the home owner or council to take people to court for not following BS7671 which before Part P was far harder. With Part P not issuing a Minor Works or an Installation certificate becomes a crime as it is required by BS7671 and Part P says you must follow BS7671.

As to selling houses it remains to be seen if solicitors will look for the completion certificate issued by council or just the installation certificates. Having read the completion certificate issued for the job I did there is nothing which ties it to the installation certificate and to be frank unless a search is done with the council how a solicitor would ever be able to sort out which installation certificates should also have completion certificates and which should not I do not know.

My mothers house has loads of paper work as much has been done since 2004. My house has the PIR I did when I first got my test set and wanted to try it out about 7 years ago. I have done nothing in the house so no paper trail. Yet I know my house is far better than my mother house but a solicitor would not see it that way.
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flyingsparks

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:13 am Reply with quote

Myy predicament is this. Napit assessment is on Monday. First one. They want to see two circuits I have wired. They even said on the phone when I asked what kind of thing they want to see just wire something from perhaps a garage fuse board wherever is easy. So that's what I have done wired some sockets and lights from a garage fuse board for the assessment. Problem is it says on the checklist that any work which is noticeable they will check with the council to see if it has been notified! But no one is going to have paid the labc fees to notify something installed for the napit assessment are they!?
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ericmark

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:23 am Reply with quote

You have not answered the most important question. What country do you live in? And I think the question you have asked needs to be answered by a Napit electrician living in same country or principality as yourself.
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flyingsparks

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:30 am Reply with quote

Sorry I'm in England. South west.
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EFLImpudence

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:25 am Reply with quote

Call and ask them exactly what they want, they won't bite.
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EFLImpudence

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:41 am Reply with quote

ericmark wrote:
Careful changes only apply to England. The poster has UK as location and Wales plus Scotland have not changed.

I'm sorry Eric but, just as Scottish people do, it is now up to Welsh people to realise that.
It is 'you' who wanted devolution.

Quote:
So consumer unit replacement and work within a stipulated area within the bathroom not the whole bathroom is now notifiable work. Even with that still allowed like for like replacement.

The bathroom rules have not changed with regard to the zones.

Quote:
Again like for like is not defined.

Nor has it EVER been stated.

Quote:
I would say identical part numbers but many consider swapping a old shower for new shower is like for like even when not the same wattage or make.

A replacement was/is just that (Wales)
Now (England) it is 'additions and alterations to circuits'

Quote:
In England now Part P is the domestic version of electricity at work act giving teeth to prosecute where BS7671 has not been followed. Like the electricity at work act first one has to get caught.

BS7671 is not statutory.
Disobeying the schemes is (probably) not a crime.

Quote:
So to me in England Part P allows the home owner or council to take people to court for not following BS7671 which before Part P was far harder. With Part P not issuing a Minor Works or an Installation certificate becomes a crime as it is required by BS7671 and Part P says you must follow BS7671.

No it doesn't.
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JohnW2 (29 Jun 2013)
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JohnW2

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:13 am Reply with quote

EFLImpudence wrote:
ericmark wrote:
Careful changes only apply to England. The poster has UK as location and Wales plus Scotland have not changed.
I'm sorry Eric but, just as Scottish people do, it is now up to Welsh people to realise that. It is 'you' who wanted devolution.

Indeed. In fact, given the differences, now (at least temporarily) extending to Wales as well as Scotland, there would be a case for renaming this forum from "Electrics UK" to "Electrics England", and for the mods to move any OPs from non-England posters to "Electrics outside England".

As far as the recent changes to 'Part P' (actually the notification criteria and'certification' matters), members of the Welsh Assembly seem to be giving out mixed messages. As I understand it, some have supported the idea of bringing the Welsh legislation into line with the 2013 changes in England, whilst others seem to feel that they should 'monitor' the effects of changes in England before making a decision.

Having said that, as far as I can see the differences in Scotland and Wales only really relate to matters of notification, 'certification' and the associated bureaucratic processes. As far as the actual electrical/'wiring' requirements, it seems that there is really no difference - compliance with BS7671 more-or-less guaranteeing compliance with the law in all three countries.

Kind Regards, John
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ban-all-sheds

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:30 am Reply with quote

ericmark wrote:
So consumer unit replacement and work within a stipulated area within the bathroom not the whole bathroom is now notifiable work. Even with that still allowed like for like replacement."

Will you show us a reference to that in the Building Regulations, please?


Quote:
Again like for like is not defined.

Perhaps there's a reason for that.


Quote:
In England now Part P is the domestic version of electricity at work act giving teeth to prosecute where BS7671 has not been followed. Like the electricity at work act first one has to get caught.

No - Part P has not changed, it still says this:




Quote:
So to me in England Part P allows the home owner or council to take people to court for not following BS7671

which before Part P was far harder.

With Part P not issuing a Minor Works or an Installation certificate becomes a crime

... Part P says you must follow BS7671.

No it doesn't.
No it wasn't.
No it doesn't.
No it doesn't.


Eric - sorry, but if you want to get involved in discussions of what the Regulations say, you have to get it right, not start making things up and giving people false information.
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ban-all-sheds

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:38 am Reply with quote

Meanwhile, those idiots at DIY Doctor drift further and further out of date, and the lies they tell people become more and more egregious.

http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/partp.htm
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EFLImpudence

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:14 pm Reply with quote

ban-all-sheds wrote:
Meanwhile, those idiots at DIY Doctor drift further and further out of date, and the lies they tell people become more and more egregious.
http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/partp.htm

That's really worrying.

I wonder how many people have installed a cooker or a generator in their bathroom.
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