Solid vs engineered oak, what surface +spec recommendations?

[jiminyrock]

Hi
This is my first post so hello!
I am planning on installing an oak floor on top of a suspended chip board floor, which I previously installed when we weren't sure what floor surface we would have. Potential considerations are:
- likely heavy use, so needs to be reasonably firm wearing
- very moist environment, due to sea in front and steep mountain behind the house
- we have a solid fuel rayburn (with a tiled hearth) but which gets very hot when in use, and generally coal dust can sometimes spread beyond the hearth
- currently stud walls have been installed ontop of the chipboard floor and transmission of sound from one side of the house to two rooms removed at the other side (~ 15m) is loud, and it'd be nice to reduce this
- lastly I am a musician, and the sound of the room is important to me. What I mean is that for example, with laminate flooring when playing the violin produces a reflected sound which is very tinny / metallic and of whihc you tire quickly. In contrast, friends of ours have a solid wood floor which produces a warm pleasant reflected sound which your ears don't tire of. Does that make sense? I don't know why laminate sounds like that, but I am worried that engineered wood, or perhaps heavily lacquered engineered wood might start to sound like laminate?!

So I am wondering what is best:
- solid wood or engineered wood
- with either, which surfacing is best: oil, uv-oil, trad varnish or lacquer
- whether I need some sort of underlay between the chipboard floor underneath and the floorboards on top

In particular, if there are any specific product recommendations I'd be very keen to hear about them!

Thanks in advance for your help.

Cheers,

Jamie

 

[AronSearle]

- solid wood or engineered wood -

Moist environment, chipboard base = engineered floating floor would be better, solid can be used but then you need someone who knows their business to spec and install it, and narrower boards would be preferred.

I am not an aucostic person, but I would have thought an engineered board with 6mm oak veneer will be no different from a solid board.

- with either, which surfacing is best: oil, uv-oil, trad varnish or lacquer

Oil, less hardy, easier to spot repair.

Varnish lacquer, harder wearing, harder to spot repair.

other than that, which do you like?

- whether I need some sort of underlay between the chipboard floor underneath and the floorboards on top

If you float it yes, you cant fix it into chipboard.

 

[ladylola]

I am not an aucostic person, but I would have thought an engineered board with 6mm oak veneer will be no different from a solid board.

only a guess here but I've seen some of the cheaper laminates that seem to be made from an mdf type of material with a very thin paper like "veneer" and perhaps it's that type of thing that produces the tinny sound. Follow the advice and get some of the better quality engineered flooring.

 

[jiminyrock]

Okay, thanks for the replies!

So it looks like engineered wood is the product I need, and as long as there is a decent bit of wood in the top layer, then it'll probably be acoustically okay.

Would tongue and groove be better, hidden nailing into the chipboard below, or should I use glue and sit the boards on an underlay? Which would be better for quietness of footsteps which with the chipboard floor you can currently here when lying in bed at one side of the house, when someone is padding about the kitchen at the other end.

There are so many websites and products out there. Does anyone have personal recommendations / specific products or companies worth going with. I am hoping to spend around £30/m2. Is that possible or unrealistic?

It sounds like laminate will be fine for the sound of the wood, and so I'll probably go with that. Thanks again for the suggestions.

 

[crazydaze]

If acoustics is absolutely the very most important thing to you, you will need a Solid Wood floor but you would need to ply and secret nail it down. Floating a Solid wood floor would offer little if any benefit over a floated engineered floor.

As has been said, Engineered will be less expensive and definately offer a more stable installation.

Engineered or a really good laminate laid on excellent sound absorbing underlay like Timbermate or Fibre Boards may offer a better finish than you were expecting. Have a look at the Pergo Vinyl Wood product, probably a better soloution than engineered or laminate re: Acoustics.

Laquered finish will be much much easier to live with than an oiled finish if you are choosing Solid/Engineered.

 

[crazydaze]

Okay, thanks for the replies!

So it looks like engineered wood is the product I need, and as long as there is a decent bit of wood in the top layer, then it'll probably be acoustically okay.

Would tongue and groove be better, hidden nailing into the chipboard below, or should I use glue and sit the boards on an underlay? Which would be better for quietness of footsteps which with the chipboard floor you can currently here when lying in bed at one side of the house, when someone is padding about the kitchen at the other end.

There are so many websites and products out there. Does anyone have personal recommendations / specific products or companies worth going with. I am hoping to spend around £30/m2. Is that possible or unrealistic?

It sounds like laminate will be fine for the sound of the wood, and so I'll probably go with that. Thanks again for the suggestions.

Not all engineered floors can be secret nailed, most can't and certainly not into chipboard, you will need to 9mm ply the subfloor first.

Accoustically a floated floor will never sound as good as fixed floor.

Avoid buying on the internet unless you know exactly what you are getting. You need to be talking to specialists directly who will be able to advise exactly what you need to suit your very specific requirements. If things are'nt what you are expecting you will have some come-back if you have discussed in detail your requirements, and you won't necerssarily be paying any more than online prices. Internet is often not any cheaper, and if you buy blind and it does'nt work out how you thought, it will be difficult to resolve any issues.

 

[jiminyrock]

Okay, thanks for the replies!
It sounds like laminate will be fine for the sound of the wood, and so I'll probably go with that. Thanks again for the suggestions.

That should have said "lacquer" not "laminate"!

 

[jiminyrock]

If acoustics is absolutely the very most important thing to you, you will need a Solid Wood floor but you would need to ply and secret nail it down. Floating a Solid wood floor would offer little if any benefit over a floated engineered floor.

As has been said, Engineered will be less expensive and definately offer a more stable installation.

Engineered or a really good laminate laid on excellent sound absorbing underlay like Timbermate or Fibre Boards may offer a better finish than you were expecting. Have a look at the Pergo Vinyl Wood product, probably a better soloution than engineered or laminate re: Acoustics.

Laquered finish will be much much easier to live with than an oiled finish if you are choosing Solid/Engineered.

I'd say the sound issue is about avoiding an evil rather than the be all and end all. We certainly want to have a wood at presentation face, either solid or engineered. It looks like engineered is the way to go. So therefore two questions:
- can the engineered wood only be laid floating over timbermate or fibreboard, or are tehre other options?
- what do you mean by lacquered will be much easier to live with than an oiled finish?

My initial concern about lacquered finishes is that lacquer is usually very hard, and also seems to be a not insignificant layer on the wood below, and that this might make the wood less like wood and more like plastic / laminate in terms of its reflective acoustically.

To my ear, laminate behaves like there is alot of high frequency noise reflected. This is what I want to avoid, but it isn't a huge priority, just as long as it doesm't sound as bad our laminate currently does!! I didn't know that underlay might help with that? Or does it help more with the sound when its walked on, or stop transmission of noise through floors?

 

[jiminyrock]

Not all engineered floors can be secret nailed, most can't and certainly not into chipboard, you will need to 9mm ply the subfloor first.

Accoustically a floated floor will never sound as good as fixed floor.

Avoid buying on the internet unless you know exactly what you are getting. You need to be talking to specialists directly who will be able to advise exactly what you need to suit your very specific requirements. If things are'nt what you are expecting you will have some come-back if you have discussed in detail your requirements, and you won't necerssarily be paying any more than online prices. Internet is often not any cheaper, and if you buy blind and it does'nt work out how you thought, it will be difficult to resolve any issues.

So acoustically:
- solid or engineered wood on timbermate will be okay for sound, but best would be to fix the floor
- is that with or without underlay
- why could this not be nailed down into chipboard (please excuse my ignorance!)
- presumably the thicker engineered products can be secret nailed?
- what benefits would there be in fixing to an additional layer of ply?

Thanks again for the help. It is very much appreciated.

 

[crazydaze]

Not all engineered floors can be secret nailed, most can't and certainly not into chipboard, you will need to 9mm ply the subfloor first.

Accoustically a floated floor will never sound as good as fixed floor.

Avoid buying on the internet unless you know exactly what you are getting. You need to be talking to specialists directly who will be able to advise exactly what you need to suit your very specific requirements. If things are'nt what you are expecting you will have some come-back if you have discussed in detail your requirements, and you won't necerssarily be paying any more than online prices. Internet is often not any cheaper, and if you buy blind and it does'nt work out how you thought, it will be difficult to resolve any issues.

So acoustically:
- solid or engineered wood on timbermate will be okay for sound, but best would be to fix the floor
- is that with or without underlay
- why could this not be nailed down into chipboard (please excuse my ignorance!)
- presumably the thicker engineered products can be secret nailed?
- what benefits would there be in fixing to an additional layer of ply?

Thanks again for the help. It is very much appreciated.

1) Yes
2) Direct fixing to the subfloor does not require any type of underlay, only if you 'float' the floor do you require underlay.
3) You cannot nail or secret nail to chipboard because chipboard is not very strong, you need to ply over the chipboard so the nails have a strong fixing when you 'secret nail' through the joints.
4) The thickness of an engineered floor is no indication of how strong, hard wearing or suitable an engineered product is for direct fixing to the subfloor.
5) see point 3.

As I said up there ^ you need to go to a specialists and ask these questions as it will be far easier to understand how these floors work and how the various installation options will suit what performance and charactaristics you need from your floor installation.

In very basic terms, when you buy an engineered or Solid Floor, the more you spend, the better quality the 'cut' of wood that makes the visual part (in Engineered) or in the case of solid the whole board. Secondly, the better the quality of the engineering of the floor itself, everything from the quality of the cutting of the various joints, to the quality of the support layers in engineered and the general finish.

Wood is an expensive commodity, the more you spend, the better the visual look and finish, the better the engineering, the more stable and the better the floor will perform. The easier the floor will be to fit, the more likely the floor will have been aclimatised and thus the more stable the floor will be.

When you float a floor, because the floor is not adhered to the subfloor, especially on a wood subfloor, there will accoustically be more noise transmitted through it, when you bond or fix a floor directly to the subfloor it becomes part of the subfloor and thus acoustically better and more solid under foot.

 

[jiminyrock]

As I said up there ^ you need to go to a specialists and ask these questions as it will be far easier to understand how these floors work and how the various installation options will suit what performance and charactaristics you need from your floor installation.

In very basic terms, when you buy an engineered or Solid Floor, the more you spend, the better quality the 'cut' of wood that makes the visual part (in Engineered) or in the case of solid the whole board. Secondly, the better the quality of the engineering of the floor itself, everything from the quality of the cutting of the various joints, to the quality of the support layers in engineered and the general finish.

Unfortunately, I have had a look around Dundee. Outwith looking at B&Q,Wickes, Topp Tiles products I have only found one reseller (who did not seem very specialist at all) with products starting around the £60/m2 (its an expensive shop all round), I've tried a local timber merchant who only does solid woods, and had also been recommended a place in Perth which turned out to be a vinyl wood look alike service. There seems to be one place I've found so far in my area that does engineered wood:
http://www.woodfloorsupplieruk.co.uk/Solid_Oak_wood_flooring/Dundee_City.html
But this has limited choice and information and doesn't inspire confidence. One other joinery outlet that says it does engineered wood I am waiting to here from.

So it looks like I may well have to source a product online. Can anyone recommend online companies that produce a decent product. As per recommendations I'm looking for lacquered engineered oak, 6mm wear, at around £30/m2

Thanks for any suggestions!