Electricity Supply

[JBR]

I have had a brilliant idea for providing more electrical energy for domestic consumers, and it's free!

Use a water pump in reverse. Attach it to any water outlet and use a hose to expel the used water into the drains. Attach the spindle of the water pump to an electrical generator/alternator, then turn on the tap. Free electricity!

(Of course, if you have a water meter it may prove rather expensive.)

I read somewhere that sometime in the late 19th early 20th centuries there were water powered motors available to drive sewing machines. Can't see them being very popular with the water suppliers.

I was joking of course but, yes, I know for certain that water power was used in the 19th century for driving organ blowers. No water meters in those days, in fact I'm not sure that they even charged people for their water supply, those who had one of course.

 

[ladylola]

I have had a brilliant idea for providing more electrical energy for domestic consumers, and it's free!

Use a water pump in reverse. Attach it to any water outlet and use a hose to expel the used water into the drains. Attach the spindle of the water pump to an electrical generator/alternator, then turn on the tap. Free electricity!

(Of course, if you have a water meter it may prove rather expensive.)

I read somewhere that sometime in the late 19th early 20th centuries there were water powered motors available to drive sewing machines. Can't see them being very popular with the water suppliers.

Here we go
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2013/09/power-from-the-tap-water-motors.html
Limited viability though.

 

[Dave54]

As you say, limited viability. an interesting past-tech curio though. Thanks for the link.

I think that water was included in "the rates" at one time, whether it was always a separate amount as in "the water rates" or not I'm not sure. I'm sure I remember my parents saying something about it.

 

[jeds]

A heat pump doesn't produce 3kw of heat from 1kw of energy. In fact it doesn't produce any heat at all. (well, aside from incidental heat produced by the system) What is does is take existing heat and simply move it from one place to another.

I'm glad you understand the concept because that's exactly how the so-called "Quantum Energy Generator" works. It transfers energy from one place to another. You put (say) 1kW in and get (say) 3kW out.

In a heat pump system the extra energy already exists and can easily be measured. Where does the extra energy come from in the QEG?

From quantum particles obviously.

Quantum particles, of course. We could use the first one to power the second one and that one to power the third and so on. If I get together with the rest of the street we could all power our houses with just 1kW of energy off the grid. I see possibilities here.

 

[Norcon]

"A heat pump doesn't produce 3kw of heat from 1kw of energy. In fact it doesn't produce any heat at all. (well, aside from incidental heat produced by the system) What is does is take existing heat and simply move it from one place to another."

That statement is peppered with contradictions and inaccuracies.

A heat pump with cop 3 using a 1kw electric motor can produce 3kw of heat energy through the compression cycle.

So while joe blogs down the road heats his room using a 3kw resistance heater and sam smith uses a heat pump the latter will consume less energy and have the same comfort as joe blogs.

Refrigeration forum wrote...
" We need to use 1kW of external work to pump 3 kW of energy from cold area to warm area (opposite flow is a natural way and no need to input any work) ... and here we are speaking only about COP ... how much unit of Work we have to use to move that much units of energy QH ....

COP= QH/W.. So statement is false."

 

[bernardgreen]

QH is the amount of heat delivered to the hot side

W is the power put into the system.

CH is the amount of heat extracted from the low temperature heat source.

The error in calculating the actual COP is that QH may not be equal to CH + W

A poorly designed heat pump with a COP of three could use 1 kW of electricity to move 3 kW from the low temperature source to the hot side with 1 kW of heat lost to the atmosphere

A well designed heat pump with a COP of three could use 1 kW of electricity to move 2 kW from the low temperature source to the hot side together with the 1 kW of heat created by the use of the electricity.

 

[jeds]

"A heat pump doesn't produce 3kw of heat from 1kw of energy. In fact it doesn't produce any heat at all. (well, aside from incidental heat produced by the system) What is does is take existing heat and simply move it from one place to another."

That statement is peppered with contradictions and inaccuracies.

A heat pump with cop 3 using a 1kw electric motor can produce 3kw of heat energy through the compression cycle.

So while joe blogs down the road heats his room using a 3kw resistance heater and sam smith uses a heat pump the latter will consume less energy and have the same comfort as joe blogs.

Refrigeration forum wrote...
" We need to use 1kW of external work to pump 3 kW of energy from cold area to warm area (opposite flow is a natural way and no need to input any work) ... and here we are speaking only about COP ... how much unit of Work we have to use to move that much units of energy QH ....

COP= QH/W.. So statement is false."

The quote is completely accurate. This does confuse a lot of people but it is quite simple and has nothing to do with magic quantum particles. A heat pump gathers heat that already exists, compresses it, moves it to a different location (outside to inside - or vice versa) and emits it. So a 1 kW pump can gather, transfer and emit 3 kW of heat, but it doesn't create that heat. A resistance heater just converts input energy to output heat so 1 kW in = 1kW out. To get 3 kW of heat out you will need to put 3 kW of energy in.

 

[Norcon]

"The quote is completely accurate"

Not according to refrigeration engineers.
Worked in the trade for 8 years but thought I might get a few second opinions from guys in the know.

Edit.
I swung on the stilsons btw.

 

[bernardgreen]

The same equipment can have two different COPs. One if the intent is to heat something and a lower one if the intent is to cool something

In heating application the energy driving the pump becomes heat and is useful so can be added to the heat output.

In cooling application the energy driving the pump becomes heat but is not useful and has to be wasted, only the heat removed from the item being cooled can be used in the COP calculation.

 

[Brigadier]

"A heat pump doesn't produce 3kw of heat from 1kw of energy. In fact it doesn't produce any heat at all. (well, aside from incidental heat produced by the system) What is does is take existing heat and simply move it from one place to another."

That statement is peppered with contradictions and inaccuracies.

A heat pump with cop 3 using a 1kw electric motor can produce 3kw of heat energy through the compression cycle.

So while joe blogs down the road heats his room using a 3kw resistance heater and sam smith uses a heat pump the latter will consume less energy and have the same comfort as joe blogs.

Refrigeration forum wrote...
" We need to use 1kW of external work to pump 3 kW of energy from cold area to warm area (opposite flow is a natural way and no need to input any work) ... and here we are speaking only about COP ... how much unit of Work we have to use to move that much units of energy QH ....

COP= QH/W.. So statement is false."

The quote is completely accurate. This does confuse a lot of people but it is quite simple and has nothing to do with magic quantum particles. A heat pump gathers heat that already exists, compresses it, moves it to a different location (outside to inside - or vice versa) and emits it. So a 1 kW pump can gather, transfer and emit 3 kW of heat, but it doesn't create that heat. A resistance heater just converts input energy to output heat so 1 kW in = 1kW out. To get 3 kW of heat out you will need to put 3 kW of energy in.

Which is why my "air-con" unit will only heat my conservatory, when the outside temperature is above a couple or three degrees C; otherwise, there is no heat in the outside air, for it to extract.

 

[jeds]

"The quote is completely accurate"

Not according to refrigeration engineers.
Worked in the trade for 8 years but thought I might get a few second opinions from guys in the know.

Edit.
I swung on the stilsons btw.

Your fridge engineers need to go back to fridge school. Think of it another way; there are no heating elements in a heat pump system.

 

[bernardgreen]

when the outside temperature is above a couple or three degrees C; otherwise, there is no heat in the outside air, for it to extract.

Air at 0°C still has heat that can be extracted from it. Only when it gets down to minus 273° C is it totally without any heat energy. Minus 273° C or it's equivalent 0°K ( Kelvin ) is Absolute Zero.

 

[Norcon]

"The quote is completely accurate"

Not according to refrigeration engineers.
Worked in the trade for 8 years but thought I might get a few second opinions from guys in the know.

Edit.
I swung on the stilsons btw.

there are no heating elements in a heat pump system.

Exactly... which is why 1kw of work can go in one end and 3kw of heat energy is dissipated at the condensor.

 

[JohnD]

Air at 0°C still has heat that can be extracted from it.

Except that around 0C, air-source pumps tend to frost up and stop working.

 

[jeds]

Only when it gets down to minus 273° C is it totally without any heat energy.

Even Yorkshire farmers put gloves on at that temperature.