So who noticed the strikes yesterday?

[big-all]

before we start bashing the unions we should have measurements in place to make sure both sides have been "fair and honest "in the negotiations
after all all the management have to do is just not negotiate then the unions will get the blame when they go on strike even iff the management are fully responsible

 

[tony1851]

BTW I am a maths teacher

Then you'll like this:

Two male mathematicians are in a bar. The first one says to the second that the average person knows very little about basic mathematics. The second one disagrees, and claims that most people can cope with a reasonable amount of math.
The first mathematician goes off to the washroom, and in his absence the second calls over the waitress. He tells her that in a few minutes, after his friend has returned, he will call her over and ask her a question. All she has to do is answer one third x cubed.
She repeats "one thir -- dex cue"?
He repeats "one third x cubed".
Her: `one thir dex cuebd'? Yes, that's right, he says. So she agrees, and goes off mumbling to herself, "one thir dex cuebd...".
The first guy returns and the second proposes a bet to prove his point, that most people do know something about basic math. He says he will ask the blonde waitress an integral, and the first laughingly agrees. The second man calls over the waitress and asks "what is the integral of x squared?".
The waitress says "one third x cubed" and while walking away, turns back and says over her shoulder "plus a constant!"

 

[Brigadier]

strikes are usually caused by frustration and often caused by bad management styles or bullying tactics

ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

That also includes all the fuss in the seventies.

British management is rubbish.

How much of the "rubbish British management" is promoted dross from the workforce?

And management is a two-way street - if someone doesn't want to be managed, they are at least partly-culpable for the ultimate failings of the organisation.

 

[AronSearle]

before we start bashing the unions we should have measurements in place to make sure both sides have been "fair and honest "in the negotiations
after all all the management have to do is just not negotiate then the unions will get the blame when they go on strike even iff the management are fully responsible

What negotiations?

The government don't want to give them rises, the unions want rises, what is there to negotiate about?

 

[JBR]

Unions?
Management?
Who is to blame?

Well, I am no lover of unions but, to be fair, I think the real problem is both.

I'm afraid that, compared to certain more successful countries (Germany, Japan, USA) we have a history of everyone pulling in different directions. The unions pull one way, the management pull the other, and never the twain shall meet.

The reason why other countries are more successful is that the two are able and willing to pull together for the common good.

 

[EFLImpudence]

strikes are usually caused by frustration and often caused by bad management styles or bullying tactics

ABSOLUTELY TRUE.
That also includes all the fuss in the seventies.
British management is rubbish.

How much of the "rubbish British management" is promoted dross from the workforce?

I don't know.
What difference does it make whether the rubbish was in-house or imported?
Both are the result of bad management.

And management is a two-way street - if someone doesn't want to be managed, they are at least partly-culpable for the ultimate failings of the organisation.

Irrelevant as still down to bad management


You seem to be trying to make points to counter my statements.
Keep trying.

 

[Brigadier]

Whereas you are just going "na na" with your fingers in your ears.

Who are your "managers"? They weren't beamed down from a mother ship (setting up a cheap shot for you there).

Fact is, many of the management that you have tarred so readily are formerly the "workers" that you are so willing to blindly defend. It is that attitude, rather than objectively assessing the situation, that is as much of the problem as anything else.

 

[EFLImpudence]

You seem to have forgotten the subject of the thread and I am not quite sure what your trying to say.

I don't follow your reasoning in asking where they come from.
What difference does it make?
If you must have an answer then what about 'the old boy's network' or 'the old school tie' being more important than relevant qualifications.

The point is that a contented, (reasonably ?) well paid work force is not going to go on strike.
Should they not be and have good reason that is the fault of the management.

 

[Brigadier]

You seem to have forgotten the subject of the thread and I am not quite sure what your trying to say.

The point is that a contented, (reasonably ?) well paid work force is not going to go on strike.

The origin of the thread was the very low strike turnout, the strike itself based on a very low vote for action.
Which nicely illustrates the folly of implying that the workforce is not [reasonably well-paid, and contented].


And while I do not disagree about an old boys' network, in the striking professions, most if not all of their managers are derived from their own peer group.

"Workers are good - managers are rubbish" - such a sweeping generalisation does nothing to further the debate.

 

[Brigadier]

I don't follow your reasoning in asking where they come from.
What difference does it make?

Your statement "managers are rubbish" - it makes a difference where "they" come from. You've predicated your position on the false premise that "they" are "old boys", who went to the "right school". I've merely pointed out that the vast majority of the strikers' managers are from their own ranks.

 

[EFLImpudence]

This was your first (apart from a joke) contribution to the thread:

Best assy strippers I ever worked with were direct labour (council's own assy team). Ok, it wasn't stripping power stations, but large school heating projects were more than able to go t!ts up, if not done properly. Also, the guys were a pleasure to work with.

But, they were milking it good and proper - £24 per hour for the operatives on a Saturday (more for the supervisors, and the managers and EHOs who invariably showed their faces), hugely overmanning the job, and stringing it out beyond belief. I was on £8 ph, OT rate.

One fondly-recalled job was to remove a single piece of undamaged asbestos insulating board, about a square metre in size, which was lying loose on top of a dumb waiter lift shaft.
Take a guess at how many men, for how long, to put that into a red bag?

Can you deny that is the result of bad management?

"Workers are good - managers are rubbish" - such a sweeping generalisation does nothing to further the debate.

I have not actually said all workers are good but if they are not it is the fault of the management.

I've merely pointed out that the vast majority of the strikers' managers are from their own ranks.

Are you saying that prevents them being 'rubbish'?

Or are they the kowtow-ers?

 

[Brigadier]

This was your first (apart from a joke) contribution to the thread:

Best assy strippers I ever worked with were direct labour (council's own assy team). Ok, it wasn't stripping power stations, but large school heating projects were more than able to go t!ts up, if not done properly. Also, the guys were a pleasure to work with.

But, they were milking it good and proper - £24 per hour for the operatives on a Saturday (more for the supervisors, and the managers and EHOs who invariably showed their faces), hugely overmanning the job, and stringing it out beyond belief. I was on £8 ph, OT rate.

One fondly-recalled job was to remove a single piece of undamaged asbestos insulating board, about a square metre in size, which was lying loose on top of a dumb waiter lift shaft.
Take a guess at how many men, for how long, to put that into a red bag?

Can you deny that is the result of bad management?

It is an illustration of the waste that is endemic in some parts of the public sector. Yes, bad management (they were in cahoots, tbh), but the hypocrisy is the same people strike, when they are found out.

I've merely pointed out that the vast majority of the strikers' managers are from their own ranks.

Are you saying that prevents them being 'rubbish'?


Not in the least, but you ought to make your mind up - half an hour ago, your poor managers were the beneficiaries of nepotism and funny handshakes.


You're not a Dale Carnegie graduate, are you EFL? Coz' under that doctrine, it is always someone else's fault too.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Not in the least, but you ought to make your mind up - half an hour ago, your poor managers were the beneficiaries of nepotism and funny handshakes.

Does the same not apply?

You're not a Dale Carnegie graduate, are you EFL? Coz' under that doctrine, it is always someone else's fault too.

Well, none of it applies to me; I opted out many years ago.
So it's definitely not my fault.