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buying a boiler, manufacturer and accessories?

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browfish

from United Kingdom

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:17 pm Reply with quote

I am looking to buy a new boiler for a complete new central heating installation (replacement). Everyone seems to recomend Vaillant but what other makes would people recommend. Worcester, Vokera, Ariston etc.... Vailant seem to be the most expensive but are they worth it?
Looking for a natural gas system boiler around 28kw.

Also, all webesites list a number of accessories availalbe. I need a horizontal flue kit, and obviously a room stat but do the controls on the boiler not enalbe you to set times for hot water/heating to come on these days, hence do you need to by a separate controller?

Also, i have bought a twin coil cylinder with the intention of potentially in the future adding solar heating on the roof. Are most boilers compatible with these systems or is there something specific i should be looking for. I guess this is where a separate controller comes in to turn the boiler on and off when the sensors tell it extra power is needed to the hot water.
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simond

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:31 pm Reply with quote

The question of which boiler manufacturer has been done to death here.

The suitability of the boiler for the job is determined by the heat requirement for the house. You can use the sizing calc on www.sedbuk.com.

Unless you have a known eg: family installer waiting (and I must assume that if this were the case, you wouldn't be asking us for advice), be aware that buying your own stuff off the internet will attract complete disinterest from most top rate installers.

Only the desperate will fit customer supplied gear. Which means you will get a moody lash up.


Reasons:
- margin. We need to make a margin on the gear to survive and answer your phone calls further down the line. Most moody installs I see were done by an installer who could not be contacted afterwards.

- missing parts, fauly equipment. Most people want a fixed price for installation work. If they supply the gear, it won't all be there and the installer wastes revenue earnign time waiting for all the missing bits to be procured.

- compatibility and familiarity. We only install a select few domestic and commercial brands, and know these well. Gas technicians not familiar with equipment take longer and make more potential mistakes. Even a good cook can make a hash of a new recipe first time round.
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The following 5 users say thank you to simond for this useful post:
dreadnoughtheating (10 Jan 2012), Mark Br (10 Jan 2012), Corgigrouch (10 Jan 2012), polesapart (8 Jan 2012), Dan_Robinson (7 Jan 2012)
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muggles

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:37 pm Reply with quote

Do a search on this forum and you'll find that this question has been asked many many times before. The result you will get is a number of different installers recommending a number of different boiler manufacturers. Having said that, you'll struggle to find anybody recommending Vokera or Ariston. Worcester are rapidly losing favour. Of the four you've mentioned I'd go for Vaillant every time, Intergas is also worth a look though, especially if you can find a Platinum 5 installer who will give you a five year warranty.

Some boilers can take an integral controller, some can't and need an external one. Vaillant will give you a few options, from a basic analogue time clock right through to something you need a degree in IT to even begin to understand. With the Intergas I prefer to use a Remeha iSense external controller, which allows the advantages of its Opentherm compatibility to be fully utilised.

As for integrating your cylinder with your boiler, and the level at which this is possible, this varies a bit according to the system you have installed. Be aware though that unless you're getting a good grant or a very cheap price, solar won't save you money, whatever the salesman has told you, so unless you're an eco-nut it's not worth doing. Much better to go the solar PV (electric) route
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muggles

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:00 pm Reply with quote

I have to agree with much of what Simon says with regard to installing customer-supplied gear. I'd insist on working on an hourly rate rather than a fixed price if I was going to install gear someone else had supplied, that way waiting time for any missing parts to be obtained is chargeable.
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browfish

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:14 pm Reply with quote

I will be doing the install myself apart from the bits i am not allowed to eg, the final gas connections (about 1 metre away from from the meter). I employ plumbers all the time with my line of business so shouldnt have a problem with getting someone to finish it off, check it and certify it. I did exactly the same thing at my last house. I wont do anything that i am not allowed to do.

I have done all the calcs with rad sizing for every room and i am looking at a Vaillant ecotec plus 630 or a Worcester Greenstar 30 CDI (although maybe not the later after your comments). I will look into the intergas though, not heard of these.

I was of the understanding after much research and advice that if you were going to opt for a green energy option to save money, the only one worth doing is solar hot water. I roughly costed up the bits to do this (excluding cylinder as i needed to buy that anyway) at around 1000. Again i would install this.
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Dan_Robinson

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:37 pm Reply with quote

icon_rolleyes.gif
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Tibbot

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:56 pm Reply with quote

browfish wrote:
I will be doing the install myself apart from the bits i am not allowed to eg, the final gas connections (about 1 metre away from from the meter). I employ plumbers all the time with my line of business so shouldnt have a problem with getting someone to finish it off, check it and certify it. I did exactly the same thing at my last house. I wont do anything that i am not allowed to do.


Unfortunately let alone the final bit, you aren't allowed to do any of the gas work. No-one can certify your work, it's a SELF certification scheme only. If you have this arrangement, no-one is likely to find out anyway but you and your installer are acting illegally.
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muggles

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:04 am Reply with quote

You can't do any of the gas bits (including disconnecting and removing any existing boiler from the gas pipe) and you can't fit the flue, everything else is fine. Get your tame plumber to cap off the gas to the old boiler before you start and all will be good.

You don't work out what size boiler you need by adding up the total requirement of all the rooms. You need to use the Whole House Method, which will give you a lower figure, so the boiler size you've calculated might not be correct. If it is, the equivalent Intergas is the Compact HRE 30 SB. The advantages of Intergas are that it has far fewer parts in it (so less to go wrong), 10-year heat exchanger warranty, 3-year warranty on all other parts (Vaillant is 2 years, although they do include labour), and Opentherm compatibility that should increase efficiency. The advantage of Vaillant is that it'll integrate better with your solar system, using the AuroMATIC controller and AuroTHERM solar collectors, preferably the Exclusive ones as they will work much better on low-light days. Just hope the cylinder you've bought is also compatible, you might have found it better to have bought an AuroSTOR....


If you have the wall space, make use of it by oversizing your radiators, or using more small ones. Doing this means you can run them at a lower temperature, which will use less gas. It's a bit complicated working out which rads you need as manufacturers still quote heat outputs based on running them hot, but it can be done with a bit of time and maths. There is a point at which the cost of buying bigger rads outstrips the savings you'll make, and you also need to consider how long you're actually intending to live in the house for before you move on.

As you're installing everything yourself, and needed a new cylinder anyway, solar thermal does make more sense. I'd be surprised if it's only 1000 to buy the kit though, be aware that not all solar collectors are created equal. You want vacuum tube ones ideally, they work better in low-light conditions than the flat panels. Also, if you want full integration, make sure the ones you get are compatible with the sensors if you don't go for the Vaillant ones mentioned above. Ideally you want more than one collector, although this does of course increase cost and therefore decrease the case for actually having them at all.
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ALEC1

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:18 am Reply with quote

the thing you nneed to do to save energy is also the cheapest, its an out door sensor and ensures that boiler heat output matches heat required, thus radiators are never particularly ht, but rooms are kept warm...

Both viessmann vitodens 200s, and vaillant have excellent boilers for this, with the added advantage that the boiler can be held off on sunny days by the solar, ie the boiler consults the panels if they can produce heat before firing...


You need several different components to those mentioned, but it is worth it.
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bengasman

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:51 am Reply with quote

Tibbot wrote:

...Unfortunately let alone the final bit, you aren't allowed to do any of the gas work.

Thats not true.

Tibbot wrote:

No-one can certify your work, it's a SELF certification scheme only.

That's not true either.
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Tibbot

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:33 pm Reply with quote

So you're saying that your Gas Safe Registration allows you to GWN the work of others not associated with your organisation?
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bengasman

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:17 pm Reply with quote

I don't see that anywhere in my post.
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Tibbot

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:34 pm Reply with quote

bengasman wrote:

Tibbot wrote:

No-one can certify your work, it's a SELF certification scheme only.

That's not true either.
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dreadnoughtheating

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:44 pm Reply with quote

Did I mention Stainless Heat Exchangers versus Alloy yet?

As simond has mentioned, most quality installers would be happier to supply/specify the components they are sure will work together best., rather than lash together what opinions garnered from wherever have suggested...

An analogy, Yes hello, we have a table reservation for tonite, here is the steak and a bag of potatoes for for your chef to cook for us... Oh, and we have bought our own plates and cutlery so really, we will be expecting a lower bill - OK?

DH
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paul78

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:50 pm Reply with quote

I always thought he was allowed to do gas work as a 'competent' person who is receiving no payment at all....
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