Hot water going into the F and E tank, why?

[Tod44]

I've got a two up two down end of terrance. 2 rads upstairs 2 downstairs. Boiler is in the kitchen, pump is in the cupboard on the landing. I think it's called an open system. When the heating comes on I can hear water running in the loft - there is hot water coming out of the copper pipe that is bent over the F and E tank. All the rads get hot and none have air in. When the heating switches off it sounds like the system is refilling and bubbles are going back up the pipes from the boiler in the kitchen.
18 months ago I had a new pump fitted, 2 years before that I had a pump fitted, three way valve (1 in 2 exits) and the system flushed by a national cowboy company who not only got water every where but put the pump on at an angle so it made a hell of noise (that resulted in an insurance claim). The plumber I use last time was excellent, he fitted the pump the right way up so it is almost silent and made no mess what so ever.
What would cause the water to go up the copper pipe into the F and E tank? The pump is on the middle setting. The thermostat on the boiler is set at 4, 6 is the highest.
I'm not sure if it did this before as I've only notice did it this winter. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[45yearsagasman]

View media item 55282
That is a classic sign of a restriction in your pipework, usually around where the cold feed and the vent are connected to your system. The diagram is a guide only, but gives some idea on what to look for.

 

[kbdiy]

The fault you have is referred to as "pumping over" and indicates a blockage in the flow pipework running from the pump to the heating circuit. Instead of being able to go where it should, the water is being forced up the vent pipe.

I had a similar problem earlier this year and managed to cure it by back flushing through the vent pipe and forcing the blockage up into the F&E tank where I was able to clean it out. However that is only possible if the vent isn't combined with the feed, which I believe some are. I know mine to be piped separately so was ok to do it.

If you drain some water out of the system does it refill properly or does it take forever? A good indicator as to whether the feed pipe is blocked where it enters the rest of the system.

 

[Tod44]

Thanks that makes sense to me. I couldn't find anything with a magnet but it was only one from the fridge
I've rung the plumber I used and he said try turning down the pump to number 1, I did that and although it's less water going up it's still there so he coming tomorrow to sort it out.

 

[Makeitgo]

Hello mate, I'll probably get shot down by the infinitely more expert here but I had some trouble recently and a plumber said it was most likely a bloccked pipe from my F&E tank to the primary flow (as alluded to above).

The plumber said, try blowing down the vent to see if water shoots into the F&E tank outlet, to test (crudely) if the cold feed pipe and vent are clear.

I did this and I was lucky, both were clear. I used a camping bed air pump to blow down the vent cos I didn't think I had enough puff and I saw ripples in the water surface where the jet of water was coming into the tank (rather than water going down through this exit.
Just a thought....

 

[Tod44]

I've had the plumber round who drained the system added some chemical and refilled the system, now I have no heating and the water is still going up to the F and E and none of the rads are getting hot. He's going to arrange for the system to be flushed.
Could the pump be on the wrong way round? The three way valve is before the pump in the direction it shows on the pump body. I looked up central heating Y diagrammes and it showed the valve after the pump. Which way is right?
I'm still going to get the system flushed though, the water that came out when he drained it was bit off colour but not black or really dark brown.

 

[Makeitgo]

Hi Tod

I found this drawing pretty good at showing the layout of an open vented system. It helped me identify each pipe in my system and try to make sense of the problem I had: http://www.muswell-hill.com/foxandco/pages/boilertypes.htm
I'm not a plumber in the slightest but...
- Presumably the plumber has left a de-sludger in the system with a view to returning and sorting your problems?
- Surely the plumber knows if the pump is the right way round?
- Do you know if the pipe that feeds cold water to the primary from the F&E tank is blocked yet. My sparse understanding is that this pipe is the first suspect if you have the problems you have experienced. I have also gathered that even power flushing might not shift blockage of the type above, and sometimes more beneficial to remove the actual blocked pipe, bin it and splice in a section of new pipe. You might want to discuss this with your plumber if he doesn't suggest this himself.

 

[Madrab]

In a fully pumped Y Plan system, the pump arrow would normally point towards the 3 port mid position valve.

 

[jackthom]

Yes and the arrow should also point away from the vent and cold feed connections.

 

[Tod44]

So if the pump was the wrong was round could it cause the hot water to go up to the F and E tank, and maybe cause air locks?
The plumber is coming round on Wednesday to change the pump round, in his words he put the pump on the same way as the original came off - however that was put on by an idiot who nearly flooded my house.

 

[hazetimesfive]

any plumber worth his salt would not be putting the pump back the wrong way round.

 

[Madrab]

If the pump was on the wrong way then yes it could cause pumping over.
Regardless of which way the old one came off, It would always be prudent to check for correct orientation of the new pump before fitting.

 

[Tod44]

I've now looked into this and found lots of good clear diagrams on the web showing how my system is plumbed in. It's a Y system, every one shows the boiler, then pump, then three way valve and then either heater coil in the H/W tank or the rads. I checked my system carefully and found that the pump is the wrong way round.
If what the latest plumber I used said is correct, that he put the new pump on the way the old one came off, and assuming that one was put on the way the original came off it means that in the last three plumbers I've used have been incompetent and presumably became plumbers because had they become electricians they would be dead by now. However as the first pump lasted nearly 20 years I think that was the right way round, I think the bloke who tried to flood my house why flushing the system and who put dirty marks up the walls and generally had no idea what he was doing put the pump on the wrong way and the recent bloke copied him. I’m an engineer and would have thought that before doing any work you would make sure that what you were doing was correct rather than copy someone else’s mistake.
The problem is I looked on the web found a plumber and have now found to quote above they aren’t worth their salt. To date apart from the chap who did some work for me 20 years ago (who was friend and left the plumbing business) I’ve had four “plumbers” who have all cocked things up in one way or another. Tomorrow I shall be educating the present one in the way to fit a pump and giving him a diagram to put in his toolbox. I will then be going out to buy some plumbers tools and doing everything myself after that unless it involves electrics. The only reason I’m not doing that now is because I’ve got Shingles and think he should put right what he got wrong. IMO there is no excuse.

 

[Makeitgo]

Todd mate, I feel for you. I also had shingles in adulthood, so we've got that and fu**ing chancers working on our stuff in common. I must admit your reportage made me pi** myself (in a good way). Best of luck with it. Anyone ever said you should be a writer ; - ) Let us know how you got on.