Packing out a thin border to be flush with a thicker tile

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Hi, new to the forum although I've browsed as a visitor before and found useful answers.
I'm about to re-tile our bathroom. I've plenty of experience of tiling but thought I'd just check out this problem as its not one I've come across before.
The main areas will be tiled with a 300x400 10mm thick tile but the border my wife has chosen is a glass mosaic (on a mesh) however this is only about 3.5mm thick. I want the mosaic border face to be flush with the main tiles so I'm going to need to pack them out by about 6.5mm. This seems a bit thick for adhesive, especially when you add in the depth of the adhesive to the main tiles.
My options seem to be:
-Fix a run of a cheap thin tiles (say 4mm thick) over the width of the border (about 80mm wide) and tile the mosaic border on top?
-Fix a rip of thin ply or GRG to the wall over the width of the border and tile the border to that?
-Dub out by building up the adhesive in layers and let it set in between coats?
-Any other/better ideas?
 
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You should be using powder cement adhesive with that size tile not tub ready mix & in which case it’s easy to build out the depth of the border tile as you lay them. Once you’ve laid the border, give it a little time to set before continuing or they could move; I always use Rapidset which allows you to continue very quickly but you will need to leave it longer with a slower setting powder addy. What is your tile base & what are your tiles?
 
Thanks Richard, was planning to use a cement powder adhesive anyway (was looking at the Mapei Rapid set C1F at under £12 for 20kg) The background is block wall with render/skim although I fully expect the skim to come off with the exisitng tiles! This is what happened in the family bathroom so no reason to expect any difference in the en-suite. The render underneath makes a good background as its flat but with a light scoring/key. I was planning to wet it a bit to avoid rapid suction of all the water from the addy mix but might go for a primer/sealer.
The tiles are made by Baldocer but sold by B&Q and seem pretty good for the price (Sorrento Grey, high gloss marble effect) the mosaic is also from B&Q but no indication of who makes them. Its an iridescent glass in purple/blue/green/gold hue depending on the angle you look from. They are in 320mm squares - 23mm squares, 12x12, but I was planning to cut the mesh to make 80mm strips. The colour/range seems to have been discontinued as we had to hunt them down by ringing several branches.
 
You may be better to remove the plaster skim if the adhesion is suspect, even in good condition it has a weight limit of just 20 kg/sqm (including addy/grout) which can be a problem on larger format tiles. You must acrylic prime Gypsum plaster/plasterboard when using cement powder addy to avoid a reaction between the gypsum & the cement in the addy; I would prime the render to kill the suction a little rather than damp it down. Be careful you don’t stain the glass tiles, haven’t seen them but your probably better to use white addy than grey.
 
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Cheers. Yes, was planning on removing the skim anyway but from previous experience it won't be difficult as most of it will be stuck to the old tiles! The problem is making a nice edge where the tiling stops so I don't have to re-plaster! Was thinking of running a score line down with the angle grinder first.
For the sake of a fiver for some primer I think I'll take your advice. Just wetted last time and didn't have any trouble but " for a hapeth of tar" and given the cost of the whole project its not worth skimping...
 
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Hi, I've finally got around to finishing the job and thought I'd share the results. I'm really pleased with how it has turned out.
In the end I fixed two battens on each wall for the bottom row and for the first row above the mosaic band and fixed all of the main tiles then next day removed the battens and fixed the mosaics. I cut a piece of architrave as a depth guide for the mosaic addy, applied the addy with a trowel then screeded it to the right depth below the main tile surface using the home made depth guide tool. Decided to go for five mosaic tiles for the width of the band (about 135mm) as we thought that gave the best look.
 
You should be well chuffed with that, looks great :D
 
Nice looking job....
I'll be doing mine in the next few weeks, just sorting out all the bits and pieces, got the tiles, border etc but pricing up the adhesive I can get nowhere near your £12 for a 20kg bag.

Thanks Richard, was planning to use a cement powder adhesive anyway (was looking at the Mapei Rapid set C1F at under £12 for 20kg)

Cheapest I've been quoted is £25 for Keraflex or £27.48 for Keraquick from a local tile stockist, but might look into the CF1 if its as good.
Are the prices you stated with an account and large discount or are the prices I've been quoted high?.
Cheers
 
http://www.diy.com/nav/decor/tiles/...oor-and-Wall-Tile-Adhesive-Grey-20kg-10137356

The Mapei C1F I used was actually from B&Q. The link above should take you there. Although on the web page it shows it as the "buildfix" brand which as I understand it is the DIY/retail brand used by Mapei the actual product on the shelf was the Mapei one with no mention of Buildfix on it although TBH I'm not sure what the actual difference is. The retail price is £14.98 for 20Kg but if you open a trade-point account you can get it for £9.90 plus vat so £11.88. They don't seem too bothered who they let open a trade-point account. In my store they were going up to people asking if they had any connection to the trade and the vaguest of connection seemed to be sufficient to let you have a card!
For info I found the stuff to be pretty good. I mixed enough to fix about 1m2 at a time and was able to use it before it sarted to set but had no trouble with slipping and seemed to have set fully after about three hours. I used the whole 20kg to fix about 5m2 of 400x300 tiles using a 12mm dia semi circle notched trowel held at 45 degree angle to give a full cover bed about 2-3mm thick once pushed in. I wanted a white adhesive for the mosaic (and had used up all of the grey fixing the main tiles anyway) so bought a 5kg bag of white Keraquick from Screwfix for £9.99 and used the whole bag fixing 3 linear meters of 135mm wide mosaic (admittedly with a very thick bed to bring it out to be flush)
 
The Mapei C1F I used was actually from B&Q. The link above should take you there. Although on the web page it shows it as the "buildfix" brand which as I understand it is the DIY/retail brand used by Mapei the actual product on the shelf was the Mapei one with no mention of Buildfix on it although TBH I'm not sure what the actual difference is.
Read here it's not the same as Mapei trade;
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1814492#1814492

pjo123's post contains correspondence from Mapei admitting the Mapei (Buildfix) products sold in B&Q are different in both packaging & formulation to genuine Mapei Trade products. It's why it's cheap & unfortunately cheap generally = nasty!
 
Thanks for the clarification on the "buildfix" differences. The stuff that was on the shelf in my branch was the "proper" Mapei product http://www.mapei.com/GB-EN/product-detail.asp?IDMacroLinea=0&IDProdotto=76&IDTipo=1611&IDLinea=1 with no buildfix branding at all but for the same price as the "buildfix" so I'm not complaining. I note that the Mapei Rapdset I used and also the Buildfix version are both classified C1F whereas Keraquick is classified C2FT so is no doubt a better product as class 2 designates "improved" but class 1 is just "normal" and the T means it is also non-slip so the absense of a T on the C1F presumably means it isn't (but slip wasn't a problem for me)

I found this which might help those who are confused understand the classifications:

Classifications of Tile Adhesives

Tile adhesives fall into three categories: Type C (Cementitious); Type D (Dispersion) and Type R (Reaction Resin). Here are some of the b

(Type C) Cement-based Adhesives

Cement-based adhesives come in the form of dry powders that are mixed with water. Once set, they are usually unaffected by water so are often a good option for use in wet environments. If you want to color your adhesive (for example if you are not using grout) then you can buy a powder colorant for use BEFORE you add water to the adhesive. You can also buy liquid colorants for use after you've hydrated the adhesive. Some cementitious adhesives can be mixed with additives to give them extra properties like more strength or greater flexibility, etc.

(Type D) Combined Adhesive and Grout

For the experienced, using an adhesive/grout combination is rarely advisable except for the smallest and simplest of jobs. Inevitably you need to make compromises if you choose this option, as what is desirable from a grout is not necessarily a wanted property in an adhesive - and vice versa. It does have the advantage of being incredibly easy to use however; so consider it if this is your first tiling adventure and the job isn't too ambitious.

(Type D) Acrylic or PVA-based Adhesives

These are premixed adhesives. They are by far the most common adhesives for wall tiling, as it's easy to use, and also to clean up should there be any spillages. They set by drying naturally through water loss. Avoid using this kind of adhesive anywhere where there will be a lot of moisture or unusual heat.

You can also buy water-resistant (which is not to say "water-proof") varieties of PVA-based adhesives for non-commercial use in bathrooms and showers.

(Type R) 2-Part Resin Adhesives

These come in two parts, to be mixed by the tiler on site. One part is the resin while the other is a hardener. If you did not already know this, then you should probably not pursue this option, as two-part-resin adhesives are usually difficult to use and expensive to buy. Even for experienced tilers, this is an option typically reserved for particularly difficult situations or very specific needs.

Vinyl Tile Adhesive

If you are using vinyl tiles then the previous information may be of limited use for you. The tiles are likely to be self-adhesive, in which case you should not need to use anything extra. If they are not, and of course you should check before you buy, then purchase some vinyl tile adhesive (specifically for floors, if this is what you are using them for). It sets fairly quickly and is of course very sticky, so if you mess up a tile, be ready to whip it back up quickly!

Other Tile Adhesive Classifications


In addition to the types laid out above, extra characteristics are also described by these numbers and letters:

1: normal adhesive
2: improved adhesive
F: fast-setting
T: adhesive with reduced slip
E: extended open time (cementitious adhesives and improved dispersion adhesives only).

For example, and adhesive labelled D2F would be a fast-setting dispersion adhesive with improved adhesive properties. Memorizing these will certainly make it seem that you mean business when you speak with your supplier.

In case you were wondering, "open time" is the maximum space of time after an adhesive is applied, at which tiles can be embedded in the adhesive and still meet the stated bond strength requirements.

This information should help you clarify what you are looking for before you choose an adhesive. Without the right adhesive, your tiling project is doomed to failure so, while choosing the tiles may be more interesting and fun, the adhesive choice is, if anything, even more crucial.
 
Nice to see someone doing a bit of research on the specification & classification of tiling products to educate themselves as to what it all means ;) . It’s unfortunate that most won’t even be aware it exists let alone pick good quality products of the correct type; to many (including some who call themselves tilers :confused: ), adhesive is just adhesive & grout is grout; isn’t it :!:

Personally I only use BAL (C2 min) but strange that your B&Q branch seems to be selling Mapei Trade at Buildfix prices.

To add a little additional info to your post regarding Elastomeric (elasticity/flexibility/deformability) classification;

S1 = Deformable (Flexible)
S2 = Highly Deformable
 

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