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Thick glass border, thin tiles, and ...


 
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SimonH2

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:41 pm Reply with quote

I've done a little tiling before - but only with 6"x6" tiles.
I'm helping a friend with his bathroom, and my first question is regarding the borders he's chosen.

As you can see, the glass border is a bit thicker than the tiles - would it be OK to press them a bit deeper in the cement to get them flush ?

For part of the room, the border will be at the top of a part tiled wall. Should I fit a beading above the border, or would it be safe to leave the smooth top edge of the glass bar exposed (it's smooth) ? If the latter, would there be a risk of the top bar coming loose and dropping off ?
I guess if I use a beading, the extra thickness of it's backing would preclude pushing the border in to be flush with the tiles.

Part of the tiled area is going to be a board covering the shower valve & pipework. I'm happy about fitting battens and packing them out to be flat and vertical etc, but what board do I need to ask for, and what thickness ? The overall span will be about 1m, though I plan in putting a couple of intermediate battens in so probably something like 3x 1ft spans.

We've had a look at heights etc, and it'll work out nicely to have a little under half a tile above the bath, then full tiles up to the ceiling - it puts the border/top of tiles at a reasonable height on the half tiles walls. I was thinking of fitting a batten and tiling all but the bottom row of half tiles before we fit the bath (it'll be a lot easier not working over the bath), and then fitting the bottom row after the bath goes in. Is there anything I need to watch out for with this plan ?

Lastly, the wall behind the bath (bath-ceiling, length of bath) was left bare as nearly all the old plaster came off with the old tiles. It's been rendered I think - the plasterer was told we'd been tiling over it, but to me it looks like sand/cement render with some wiggly grooves scratched into it. Do we need to do anything before tiling over it ?
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Richard C

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:35 pm Reply with quote

SimonH2 wrote:

As you can see, the glass border is a bit thicker than the tiles - would it be OK to press them a bit deeper in the cement to get them flush ?

Itís usually the other way around which is easier to accomodate; what you could do us use a solid thick bed (floor) trowel on the - 20mm round notches, 10mm deep, at 28mm centres; the larger trowel will give you a slightly thicker adhesive bed under the tiles allowing you to set the glass tile border further back but, to be honest, I donít think you will really notice it. I have glass border tiles in my own bathroom & these are slightly proud of the tiles either side, I donít notice it & no one has ever commented on it.

SimonH2 wrote:

For part of the room, the border will be at the top of a part tiled wall. Should I fit a beading above the border, or would it be safe to leave the smooth top edge of the glass bar exposed (it's smooth) ? If the latter, would there be a risk of the top bar coming loose and dropping off ?
I guess if I use a beading, the extra thickness of it's backing would preclude pushing the border in to be flush with the tiles.

Personally I donít like borders & will only fit them if Iím forced to do so; I think they look cheap & nasty, especially the crappy plastic quadrant stuff. I prefer to bevel the tiles on all external corners & where the wall is only half tiled, just paint the top of the tile ďwall colourĒ if itís not colour glazed. Again, my own glass wall tile borders are finished this way; they are not that fragile!

SimonH2 wrote:

Part of the tiled area is going to be a board covering the shower valve & pipework. I'm happy about fitting battens and packing them out to be flat and vertical etc, but what board do I need to ask for, and what thickness ? The overall span will be about 1m, though I plan in putting a couple of intermediate battens in so probably something like 3x 1ft spans.

You can use moisture resistant plasterboard in dry areas but only ever use a waterproof tile backer board in wet areas & around the shower valve. Use 12.5mm boards & support over vertical battens max 400mm apart, horizontal battens you can space around 1200 max but make sure you provide adequate support for & around the shower valve. I would give the battens a good dosing of acrylic primer or SBR to help keep out moisture in case of a problem with the valve or pipe work. Never plaster over boards, just tile straight onto them. If you need to plaster MR PB on Ĺ tiled walls, it must be primed; if using cement powder adhesive over Gypsum plaster or PB it must be acrylic primed to prevent any reaction between the cement in the addy & gypsum in the plaster.

SimonH2 wrote:

We've had a look at heights etc, and it'll work out nicely to have a little under half a tile above the bath, then full tiles up to the ceiling - it puts the border/top of tiles at a reasonable height on the half tiles walls. I was thinking of fitting a batten and tiling all but the bottom row of half tiles before we fit the bath (it'll be a lot easier not working over the bath), and then fitting the bottom row after the bath goes in. Is there anything I need to watch out for with this plan?

Thatís standard practice (for me anyway), leave a 2mm gap under the tile to the top of the bath. When you come to silicone, fill the bath with water before you apply a silicone bead & leave it overnight to set before emptying the bath. I silicone in two stages; force silicone between the top of the bath & the underside of the tile using an uncut nozzle; immediately clean off any excess, cut the nozzle to the desired bead size & silicone again between the top of the bath & the front face of the tile.

Put a blanket or a couple of sheets in the bath, donít drop any tiles; powder addy & grout will also cause scratches so be careful.

SimonH2 wrote:

Lastly, the wall behind the bath (bath-ceiling, length of bath) was left bare as nearly all the old plaster came off with the old tiles. It's been rendered I think - the plasterer was told we'd been tiling over it, but to me it looks like sand/cement render with some wiggly grooves scratched into it. Do we need to do anything before tiling over it ?

No not really but you might damp the render down a bit with an old kitchen spray to kill the suction a little.

There are many things that can catch you out particularly if you also intend tiling a suspended timber floor. I would advise you read the Tiling Sticky & Forum Archive posts before doing any work or buying materials, it could prevent you making disastrous & potentially expensive mistakes. Itís also important to use only quality trade tilling materials of the correct type for your tiles & tile base; cheapo own brand & DIY stuff is mostly crap. Use only cement powder addy on tiles larger that around 250mm, not tub ready mix; use flexy addy over the boards.
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Richard C

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:53 pm Reply with quote

Re-reading your post, Iíve had a thought about your wall behind the bath. Check to make sure it is indeed a sand/cement render, base plaster is not a suitable tile base. Unless a quick set render has been used, you must also leave it to dry out before tiling; a 12-15mm render base will take up to 28 days to dry & reach max strength, if you tile over it before hand you could end up with problems.
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SimonH2

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:34 pm Reply with quote

Thanks for that, much information. The wall was done a couple of months ago, so it'll be dried out by now.

I'm not keen on the border myself, but that's what he wants ! I actually think it would look OK without a beading if you think it'll be secure with one side open. When I learned to tile watching my dad, you got edge tiles with a round edge for outside corners etc - none of this plastic beading stuff !
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Richard C

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:18 pm Reply with quote

SimonH2 wrote:

I'm not keen on the border myself, but that's what he wants ! I actually think it would look OK without a beading if you think it'll be secure with one side open.

Mines been up for 7 years & no problems, itíll be fine as long as you donít start opening beer bottles on it!
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SimonH2

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:20 am Reply with quote

Should have added, yes the floor is being tiled, but that's concrete. And I've read the stickies.
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SimonH2

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:53 pm Reply with quote

I wrote :
SimonH2 wrote:
Lastly, the wall behind the bath (bath-ceiling, length of bath) was left bare as nearly all the old plaster came off with the old tiles. It's been rendered I think - the plasterer was told we'd been tiling over it, but to me it looks like sand/cement render with some wiggly grooves scratched into it. Do we need to do anything before tiling over it ?

A little more on this one.

The jobs is coming along very slowly, only one day a week, and not all weeks, and other stuff to do, etc, etc - good job he's not living there yet with no loo icon_eek.gif

Last weekend I was eyeing up the tile positioning, and just like the floor tiles, it looks like the room dimensions and window position work out quite nicely. But, laying a straight edge along this wall, it's not that flat. It's better than a lot I've seen, but towards the ends it dips back a little (perhaps 4-5 mm) and then comes up again so by the corner it's back in line with the bulk of the wall.
Would you be bothered by this ? Should I just hold the trowel a bit steeper to leave thicker cement beads where the dip is ? Or even use the coarser comb trowel we used for the floor for those few inches ?
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Richard C

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:19 am Reply with quote

Fill out level with cement based adhesive using plastering trowel before you tile & let it set but not dry out before tiling over using tiling trowel; this could be as little as 30 minutes or so if using Rapidset but obviously longer for a slower curing addy.

Donít forget gypsum plaster/plasterboard must be acrylic primed when using cement powder adhesive.
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SimonH2

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:01 am Reply with quote

Richard C wrote:
Fill out level with cement based adhesive using plastering trowel before you tile & let it set but not dry out before tiling over using tiling trowel

Sounds like a good plan - chance to learn something else !
Quote:
Donít forget gypsum plaster/plasterboard must be acrylic primed when using cement powder adhesive.

How would I tell what the guy used (apart from phoning and asking) ? It feels just like sand/cement render, perhaps you can tell (guess) from it's colour ?

This was a while ago when we first tried the bath in for size.
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SimonH2

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:22 pm Reply with quote

Richard C wrote:
Donít forget gypsum plaster/plasterboard must be acrylic primed when using cement powder adhesive.

Sorry to keep adding questions icon_redface.gif

Firstly, is the bottle of "green" that comes in the Warmup underfloor wire kits suitable ?

Secondly, what happens if you mix gypsum and cement layers without acrylic primer ?
EDIT: Ooh, never mind about that one, doesn't sound nice icon_eek.gif
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Richard C

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:24 am Reply with quote

SimonH2 wrote:

How would I tell what the guy used (apart from phoning and asking) ? It feels just like sand/cement render, perhaps you can tell (guess) from it's colour ?

The wall behind the bath looks like conventional sand/cement render to me. The adjacent wall looks like plaster or at least the majority of it; if in doubt acrylic prime it.

SimonH2 wrote:

Firstly, is the bottle of "green" that comes in the Warmup underfloor wire kits suitable ?

Iíve no idea what's in the bottle of ďgreenĒ packaged with the Warmup UFH kit, what does the bottle or the manufacturer's instructions say? For the sake of the cost of 2 Ĺ litres of decent acrylic tile primer, I would advise you use the correct product.

SimonH2 wrote:

Secondly, what happens if you mix gypsum and cement layers without acrylic primer ?

You can put gypsum (plaster/plasterboard/screed) over cement base coat render or screed without any problems but if you use cement or cement based tile adhesive over gypsum plaster/plasterboards without priming, you risk a reaction between gypsum & the cement which can lead to eventual failure.

Are you planning to tile the floor & include an UFH mat? If so make sure you research what you need to do for suitable materials & prep before you start. If itís a suspended timber floor they need special consideration & prep if you want it to last.
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SimonH2

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:55 pm Reply with quote

Richard C wrote:
The wall behind the bath looks like conventional sand/cement render to me. The adjacent wall looks like plaster or at least the majority of it; if in doubt acrylic prime it.

Yes, the far wall is plaster, needed quite a bit of making good as some of it (mostly just the top layer) came off with the old tiles. What was left seems solid enough.
Quote:
Iíve no idea what's in the bottle of ďgreenĒ packaged with the Warmup UFH kit, what does the bottle or the manufacturer's instructions say? For the sake of the cost of 2 Ĺ litres of decent acrylic tile primer, I would advise you use the correct product.

Yeah, we decided to buy a bottle of primer, only a tenner for 1l but another trip into town. The Warmup UFH kits come with a bottle of green primer - but there's no information I can find anywhere that says what it is. There's no "first aid" info on the bottle, nothing in the instructions, nothing on their website. It feels just the same as the BAL primer I bought at the weekend - but as you say, not worth the risk of having a couple of walls of tiles fall off.
Quote:
Are you planning to tile the floor & include an UFH mat? If so make sure you research what you need to do for suitable materials & prep before you start. If itís a suspended timber floor they need special consideration & prep if you want it to last.

Yes, that's all done - just followed the instructions.

Started on tiling the walls, got the first two rows of full tiles on the far end. Now they're fixed, next step is to fix a batten on the rendered wall so we can start that, and fill in with the cut tiles on the back wall. At least these large (250x400) tiles fill an area nice and quickly icon_smile.gif

As for the top of the border, we've decided to put a 1/2 tile above it which brings the top of the tiles to a convenient height. So the border will be bounded top and bottom with tile.

And it's getting easier now I've got the hang of mixing the adhesive to the right consistency icon_rolleyes.gif
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SimonH2

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:54 pm Reply with quote

Getting somewhere now.

Back wall is almost tiled - our priority was to get to the point where the toilet can be fitted, for what should be obvious reasons. Didn't get the wall as flat as I thought, but with the toilet and sink there it won't really show. The side wall didn't seem too bad when I had another look, but I gave it a light skim with tile cement to fill in the hollow bit.

The borders did press in quite well, so they are almost flush with the tiles. The little "loose" squares at one end kept trying to sneak out a bit, but I think we got them all sorted. Should look OK once the plastic is off and they're grouted.

Anyway, getting the hang of it now so the rest should happen quite quickly - and I can leave my mate to do the grouting on his own as "homework".

EDIT:
Oops, forgot to include the pics.

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SimonH2

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:08 pm Reply with quote

It's been finished for a while, but I've finally got round to posting some finished photos (at the end of the first posting in ]this thread.

The funny thing is, before we started my mate never looked at tiling. This job had come out "OK", but there are aspects I'd like to have done better. But now, after I've been pointing out faults, my mate starts seeing faults wherever he goes - he'd never noticed the huge amount of lippage on the tiling in the bog at work for example icon_rolleyes.gif
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