Who follows Part P anyway?

[JohnnyG]

martinxxxxxx wrote:

....So far I have spent about £2k to come up to date and it is a bit gutting to see that others are not bothering. I am sure you will tell me that the householders will come unstuck eventually, but will they really? Ponder and answer Martin

The competent person scheme is essentially a good idea except it's not administered or marketed properly.
The requirements for joining a scheme provider are not stringent enough which the training companies realise and just teach prospective applicants how to pass the necessary exams needed to join a scheme, not how to be great in the field of domestic electrical installations and maintenance.
There are some excellent training centres who do give you an awful lot more and want you to excel though to be fair, but there are more who just blind you with promises of 'potentially lucrative qualifications', teach you how to pass an exam (parrot fashion), take your money and set you free in the real world, this isn't limited to the electrical industry by the way.
To join the NICEIC (for instance) you need an EAL VRQ (or equivalent) a C&G 2382 (which you have to gain during the first 12 months, not at time of application), liability insurance, at least a years experience and a couple of previous jobs.
These can all be gained within 10 days, even the years experience unfortunately.
There are and always will be fly-by-nights who take advantage of this as an attempt to get rich quick without caring about the consequences of what a little knowledge can do.

But, for people like you (and me) who want to equip themselves with the correct knowledge, technical skills and experience in order to offer a great service to customers and build a reputation as being more than competent in their chosen field it's a great thing as there never used to be a way for serious applicants to learn something they want to do if they went down a different path at school.
I'm currently doing as many foundation courses in the evenings that I can, I'll do a 'Part P' course, a C&G 2382, C&G 2392>2391 & C&G 2330 whilst doing jobs for free for friends and family.

Don't worry about what the cowboys do, if you do your part properly and put in much more than what's required to be registered DEI (not an electrician) your money and time will be well spent

[russyboy]

Well said jonny G

Totally agree.....

[Paul_C]

ban-all-sheds wrote:

I'm afraid so, if the professional decides that it's more cost effective to pay £200+ per job instead of £3-400 per year (from memory).

To my mind, the professional electrician should be concerned with the quality of his work and making sure that he does a good job, not with obeying a set of bureaucratic rules that everyone knows are a joke, just to line the pockets of the local authority.

Would you still say that disregarding the rules would not be compatible with the status of a professional if those rules were changed to require, say, that every job be notified to the council regardless of registration status, and that the notification fee for the smallest job was £500?

[ban-all-sheds]

Yes.

Leaving aside matters of human rights and oppression etc, a professional does not incorporate deliberate lawbreaking into his business practices.

That's what cowboys do.

__________________
I mustn't warn people that the "experts" on the plumbing forum can't be trusted to tell the truth.

[Paul_C]

ban-all-sheds wrote:

a professional does not incorporate deliberate lawbreaking into his business practices

It seems to be good enough for professional politicians.......

Just how oppressive would the system have to become then before you would cry "Enough!" and say that ignoring the law was perfectly justified?

£5000 per annum registration fee to do any electrical work, even changing a fuse? £2000 notification per job, even if it's just changing a light switch?

[ban-all-sheds]

Paul_C wrote:

It seems to be good enough for professional politicians.......

Well, if those are the standards you aspire to.

Quote:

Just how oppressive would the system have to become then before you would cry "Enough!" and say that ignoring the law was perfectly justified? £5000 per annum registration fee to do any electrical work, even changing a fuse? £2000 notification per job, even if it's just changing a light switch?

Nope.

There is no point you quoting ever larger and larger sums of money - you are only doing that to try and deflect attention from the fact that your dislike is not financially motivated - you just don't like the scheme.

Well TFL. It is not down to you to decide which laws you will or will not obey based on what you happen to like or dislike.

__________________
I mustn't warn people that the "experts" on the plumbing forum can't be trusted to tell the truth.

[RF Lighting]

I wonder how many people as a result of signing upto a competent person scheme have been out and bought proper calibrated test equipment, and now routinely test and fill out test certificates at the end of jobs?

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I downlights

[bernardgreen]

The building regulations are needed, otherwise builders would be building far more sub-standard buildings than they do now. Some of which are down right dangerous as owners find out but by which time the building company has conveniently gone bankrupt or for some other reason ceased trading.

But they need to be enforced against those who intend to ignore them.

There are four types of people who do work on domestic dwellings and the way building regs are handle need to vary to match the type of person.

[1] professional and skilled builders who intend to do a good quality of work.

[2] DIY builders who after research and learning intend to do a good quality of work.

[3] cowboy builders who are either ignorant or intend to cut as many corners as possible to reduce costs. Some are both.

[4] the ignorant DIY who tackles work without the necessary knowledge.



My wife and I self built our house back in 1980-81. Except for battening and slating the roof and the brick chimney stack we did all the work ourselves under the guidance of the architect Walter Segal and with copious help and advice from the building inspector assigned to the project. Being DIY self builders building our own house we were not going to take short cuts that would comprise safety, the building inspector realised that and accepted we would not try to deceive him in any way.

While we were building there were "professional" builders building nearby. The builders supported by "trade associations", manufacturers and "professional organisations" ran rings around the sensible application of building regulations to poor workmanship and materials. Defects were still being found twenty years after people had moved in.

We could have been prevented from self building as we were not qualified, the slip shop cost cutting cowboy builders were able to over come the controls simply by showing " qualifications and approval papers" to "prove their work was up to standard.

[JohnnyG]

RF Lighting wrote:

I wonder how many people as a result of signing upto a competent person scheme have been out and bought proper calibrated test equipment, and now routinely test and fill out test certificates at the end of jobs?

That's another example of scheme providers not administering properly.
They should make their members issue test certificates with every job, not just notifiable work.
They should at least have a C&G 2392 before they can join a scheme as well.

[chapeau]

An extremely well thought out and perceptive post from bernardgreen. Goes some way to explaining why people come on here asking how to change their own consumer unit.

[mikhailfaradayski]

RF Lighting wrote:

I wonder how many people as a result of signing upto a competent person scheme have been out and bought proper calibrated test equipment, and now routinely test and fill out test certificates at the end of jobs?

I know that Napit ask to see the Testing equipment and calibration certificate, cant speak for the nicey DI's, maybe they have a neon screwdriver?
No calibration required, evidence of a pulse is enough?

__________________
Please check your intended project has compliance with Part P and any LABC notification requirements

[ericmark]

What is Part P
It is a law which allows prosecution for unacceptable work without the need to prove it was sub-standard.
Before Part P where electrical work had been completed in a sub-standard manor it was hard to prove and those completing the work could often wriggle out of prosecution.
But unless the work is sub-standard then no one seems to worry. The only exception is where people claim to be in a competent persons scheme but are not.
We all know it should have been more like the gas. And if you charge for work as a person you should be registered but this did not happen and large firms can and do still employ cowboys to do the work and use qualified sparks to do inspecting and testing.
Lets face it. What qualification is needed to work on Part P reportable work? Non only the person testing need be qualified and even then he is often not personally registered it is the firm who is registered and he could have lied when applying for the job and have no qualifications at all.
We have all watched builders from hell and we all know the LABC get paid to do nothing and seem to be able to wash their hands of any responsibility for the work they handle. My son admitted due to a change in the form layout he entered figures which failed but was never picked up on his mistake yet it was supposed to be checked at head office, by scheme operator and LABC and all three missed the error.
It seems the only people who are checked are the sole traders and the fees to scheme operator are averaged per job a lot higher for sole traders than for large firms. And lets face it how many of us will read anything but BS7671:2008 after being in the game for 30 years plus there is very little I will learn from on site guide so why insist one has one?
The more you look at it the more it seems to be to squeeze sole traders out of business. And when only part of ones work was domestic it is a huge charge for maybe the half dozen jobs which need Part P registration.
Any wonder they don’t bother. OK you start a job which did not need registration under Part P but something found while doing the job will need Part P, but by this point it comes under emergency work, which can be registered post work being completed, so you hand the house holder the inspection and testing paperwork and explain that this will need registering with the LABC. Lets assume they don’t bother.
And then 12 months latter they decide to sell the house. So tell the council you did the work but did not provide a completion certificate. What do you think are the chances of :-
1) The LABC trying to bring a prosecution.
2) Them succeeding.
Assuming no substandard work. We all know it will not happen the LABC will issue a completion cert with maybe a fee and that will be the end of it. Because the registration may be also for other work it is common for builder or house holder to just include the electrical work with the rest. And this means it’s near impossible to police except where the work is sub standard and people know it.
Part P will die like parking on the pavement. Yes certain areas will have a go but most will only do anything if they get complaints. And who is going to complain?
Luck I’m now out of it all.

Oh and I have also done a foundation course which is level 5. i.e. the same as a HND or HNC and non of the courses 'Part P' course, a C&G 2382, C&G 2392>2391 & C&G 2330 are better than level 3. They are non Foundation courses they are only further education not higher education. And JIB would not accept my Foundation degree and 2391 + 2382 plus 30 years experience and graded as advanced NAECI agreement get a card with anything other than mate.
So sorry your wasting your time you need to work for someone like Laing and for them to buy out Crown house for you to get a card. When that happened most Electricians got a JIB card without a problem. All to do with Luck.

[martinxxxxxx]

I completely agree. I always thought he was completely legit. He is not your typical cowboy. So i was shocked when he told of how he regards part p .

But although he is a friend he represents himself as my competition as he picks up all the small jobs and does them at a price that i cant.

Plus he does a neat job. He is known as the man who can for small building jobs amongst my circle of friends and i don't want to start slagging him off. I don't need enemies.

I have asked him how he came up with wiring plans for work he has done and i am afraid it leaves a bit to be desired. Maybe i should do some inspection work on his stuff and present him with the findings.

[ban-all-sheds]

Heavy night last night, Martin?

__________________
I mustn't warn people that the "experts" on the plumbing forum can't be trusted to tell the truth.

[martinxxxxxx]

ban-all-sheds wrote:

Heavy night last night, Martin?

Think it was something I ate.

Did that lest post from bed with the nokia phone. Blooming predictive text always seems to put "foot" instead of don't

Feeling crap this morning no sleep and got to go to manachester tomorrow, to do the Inspection and Test course, plus 17th update exam, plus part p exam. I hope I feel better later.

Oh and before all get the wrong idea, two glasses of wine was all I have on the grog front.