Alarms ? wired or wireless

bernardgreen · 3 Dec 2009

TheTruth said:
I am sure the business actually acts with extreme probity and considering its responsibilities it has to do so to protect itself from legal action and to qualify for insurance.

The protection from legal action and to qualify for insurance is almost always provided by clauses in small print that say the manufacturer will not and cannot be held responsible for consequently losses as a result of their equipment failing to operate.

Atilla · 4 Dec 2009

smeeagain said:
The trouble with getting sensors to do lots of concurrent jobs is that this will reduce their length of service between battery changes.

at last the penny drops - no grade three here then?

My thoughts as someone who has worked with wireless exclusively is that there will be a way to make the systems work exactly as required as the current bare bones show good promise.

you don`t know the 1st thing, wireless is already working past it`s capabilities

olbas · 4 Dec 2009

With regard to wireless, there is a lot of comment as to how it does this, that the other. This should be seen as nothing more than comment on the subject in general. Nothing specific and pertinent to a particular system and it's methods of operation have been stated therefore no accurate conclusion can be made on it's capabilities from these comments.

smeeagain · 4 Dec 2009

With lithium batteries you will get 4 yrs out of even a hard worked sensor.

Not only that but the control panels will flag when a sensor is showing low power enabling a battery change in plenty of time without system compromise.

Atilla · 4 Dec 2009

i was premature - he has no idea.

Mark - think whats required for a G3 detector (we`ll help you out because we actually know you have no idea and it`s getting boorish making you look this silly)

A G3 requires range reduction detection - how long in an active enviroment with no down time between signals do you think your lithium is going to last .......... we actually do know because as a proffesional firm we`ve tested it, so lets see how wild your guess is.

smeeagain · 4 Dec 2009

olbas said:
With regard to wireless, there is a lot of comment as to how it does this, that the other. This should be seen as nothing more than comment on the subject in general. Nothing specific and pertinent to a particular system and it's methods of operation have been stated therefore no accurate conclusion can be made on it's capabilities from these comments.

Ok then.
This is a DIY forum so I will explain EXACTLY what a Yale wirefree control panel does.

When the devices are enrolled into the control panel they are then named and an atribute is allocated
This could be
Burglar . for immediate activation
Entry . Which will set off the countdown timer (programmable in 10 second increments - default is 20 secs)

Omit - for a part set option ie landing PIR
24hr - Immediately activates wether alarm set or not (Cellars or Storage Sheds for example)

Once the system is programmed the devices are put in place and in walk test the control panel bleeps when you press a send button on the device so you know the panel is picking up the device.

When the system is finished then the control panel takes over monitoring the devices.

The fault log will show if the alarm is activated and which sensor started the activation. It also keeps a chronological list of up to 100 events.

The panel will show if a device drops out of radio contact by displaying the device name with the message OUT OF ORDER

The panel also has an orange light which comes on when any fault occurs including loss of AC power or even loss of the telephone line.

If a remote device has a battery low problem the Panel will indicate the specific device and a BATTERY LOW warning.

The panel also indicates wether any device has a tamper fault. Both in real time and when an attempt is made to set the system. any Faults will show with an option to force arm.

The siren itself and the remote devices also all indicate low battery status by the rapid flashing of their on board LEDs.

smeeagain · 4 Dec 2009

If I were to design a wireless system and it had 2way capabilities I would simply let the sensors go into sleep mode whenever the alarm wasn't actually set.

If modern alarm designers haven't done that simple step then they would deserve all your criticism.

bernardgreen · 4 Dec 2009

DIY installers might like to know the answer to this question,

A sensor has detected that it has a low battery and has informed the control panel. For how many days is that sensor with low battery still able to detect motion and thus create an alarm. ?

The scenario is that the alarm is set when the owner goes on holiday for 14 days. One day after he has left a sensor detects its battery is low. Will the sensor remain active for the rest of the holiday ?

And on battery life. How does the battery life of a sensor in a location where there is a lot of movement compare to the life of the same type of sensor and battery in an area where there is hardly any motion to detect.

Or in other words is battery life affected by the number of times motion is detected.

Many battery power items use battery economy where ever to prolong usefull life of a battery. Some radio systems turn the receiver on for 1/10 sec and off for 9/10 seconds, only if a wake up signal is heard in that one tenth of a second does the receiver stay on to receive the message that follows the one second wake up signal. Battery life is extended by as much as 8 or 9 times but messages are delayed by one and bit seconds.

Is battery economy applied to the PIR motion sensors in a battery powered alarm system ? If so what is the timing of it ?

bernardgreen · 4 Dec 2009

smeeagain said:
If I were to design a wireless system and it had 2way capabilities I would simply let the sensors go into sleep mode whenever the alarm wasn't actually set.

If modern alarm designers haven't done that simple step then they would deserve all your criticism.

It isn't quite that simple a step.

But by asking the question it does suggest the more detailed and important information about system operation is not readily available. Such information is needed to be able to make an informed choice about which system to use.

smeeagain · 4 Dec 2009

even the yale has power saving built into the pirs . After a few detections the sensors sleep for one minute. To have a 2 way device go into idle mode is surely well within capabilities. And grade 3 has 6 monthly servicing , battery life should never be an issue. why wouldnt installers want to embrace the systems. Surely the customer comes first and if that means swapping batteries then so be it.

bernardgreen · 4 Dec 2009

smeeagain said:
even the yale has power saving built into the pirs . After a few detections the sensors sleep for one minute.

How does the power saving ( or battery economy ) affect sensing when the system is armed. With battery economy methods operating in the sensor when the system is armed is the motion sensor continuously active or is it only sensing for short periods with gaps between these active periods.

If so then what is the timing of the active and inactive periods ? Could the in-active time be long enough for a person to move completely through the detection zone while the sensor is in-active.

smeeagain · 4 Dec 2009

the power saving works as follows. when the sensors detect several movements then the sensors idle for 1 minute.
in an armed sate this idling does not affect operation as the first movement detected triggers the alarm before the sensor would go into idle, which takes several activations. There is no need to consider down time when the alarm is set as the sensors remain active as long as they have not detected movement.
.

bernardgreen · 4 Dec 2009

So the sensor is continuously active ( sensing ) while the system is armed and only goes into sleep mode after a detection and the control panel having been informed.

edit question How does the sensor ensure the panel has received the alarm ( motion detected ) signal before it goes into sleep mode ?

It seems there is no battery economy or power saving after the system is armed. It only comes into effect after a detection has occurred.

It also seems that when the system is NOT armed the sensor in is only in sleep mode ( a form of power saving ) after motion has been detected.

It seems that there is no battery economy or power saving in a sensor until that sensor has detected motion after which a one minute period of reduced power occurs. So a sensor in an area where there is no motion to detect (other than by break in) will never enter sleep mode. So the battery in this seldom activated sensor is going to have the shortest service life of all batteries in the system. A sensor in the living room will be in sleep mode most of the time the house is occupied.

smeeagain · 4 Dec 2009

the power is saved because of the following.
when a sensor is active and it senses movement a red led lights behind tne lens to indicate detection and a transmition is made. When in idle no led lignts up and no signal is sent.
because the panel can poll the devices i assume the devices transmit an ,i,m here still, signal periodically
Re the signal being confirmed at the panel before the device xleeps. It takes around 7 or so activations to trigger sleep mode

Atilla · 4 Dec 2009

obviously Mark & Bernard don`t know the requirments for a G3 device.

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Alarms ? wired or wireless

bernardgreen

Atilla

olbas

smeeagain

Atilla

smeeagain

smeeagain

bernardgreen

bernardgreen

smeeagain

bernardgreen

smeeagain

bernardgreen

smeeagain

Atilla

DIYnot Local

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